Well folks, we are getting very close to the end of an entire system of things. As the center of power shifts in the Mediterranean world toward Rome, we edge closer to the end- the season 1 finale (Friday folks!). There is no doubt that the Roman Republic and early Empire produced many vigorous statesmen, including leaders of the famous Senate, and many discussions of basic political principles. Although some leaders seized power by military force or by manipulating support, others were selected because they seemed to exemplify sound political virtues. Unlike Athenians, who in their democratic period chose many officials by lot, most Roman republican leaders were elected by the Senate or the popular assembly, and this prompted frequent discussions of what qualities a good statesman should possess. Correspondingly, when political life in the Republic became more contentious and unstable, ultimately giving way to the formation of the Empire, and again later when the Empire itself began to function badly, many observers blamed a deterioration of leadership quality rather than any larger problems.The passage that I would like you to read was written by a Greek politician and writer, Plutarch (whom you've read already hopefully) during the early stages of the Empire (specifically during the early part of the pax romana period) when republican values continued to be widely touted even though institutions were changing. Entitled Precepts of Statecraft, this document was designed to relate examples of success and failure for the training of a Greek aristocrat, Menemachus. Plutarch belonged to a wealthy family in the Greek city of Chaerona. He was fascinated with Roman political affairs, because the Romans had ruled his region for some time. He compiled a host of biographies of Roman emperors and other political figures, advised the emperor Trajan, and ultimately became both a citizen of Rome and an ambassador. Plutarch's method, using historical example to illustrate and deriving basic lessons in political behavior, included abundant references to past figures such as Pericles (whom Plutarch admired) or the popular but ultimately assassinated Roman reformers, the Gracchus brothers (whom Plutarch judged unwise for disrupting the late Republic).
Plutarch's summary of Mediterranean political values at the height of the Roman period obviously deserves comparison with earlier statements from leaders of Greek city-states and with political philosophers in other classical civilizations, such as Confucius. Please click on the following link (Precepts of Statecraft) to read excerpts from Plutarch's Precepts of Statecraft.
Once you have read the passage, I would like for you to think about and discuss the following: What are the main qualities a good leader should aspire to, according to Plutarch? What are the main functions of a good leader and a good state? Why would Plutarch have been so attracted to Roman--which was, to him, foreign--rule, in your opinion? Why was Plutarch relatively uninterested in the specific structure of a state? In your opinion, was this a potential weakness in his political approach? How do his principles for leadership compare with those earlier implied by Pericles? What would Plutarch have thought of attempts to form a democracy? What are the similarities and differences between Plutarch's concept of leadership and that of Confucius? Which approach was most useful for forming an effective bureaucracy? Finally, how do Plutarch's political principles and his goals for the state compare with more modern formations?
Also folks, I've been thinking (I know, dangerous!), as I look at the Roman Empire that will come into being during the reign of Caesar Augustus, I can't help but notice some clear similarites between the Roman Empire and the Han Empire in China (both of which existed around the same time). The two empires were arguably the most powerful and influential states in their respective parts of the world. Both states, in different ways, instilled tremendous loyalty in their subjects. Neither state was inspired by a passionate religious fervor. Both empires made use of philosophical foundations. What lessons could the modern state planner learn from the Chinese and Romans in your opinion? Also, I can't help but continue comparing Rome to the United States. Was the Pax Romana different from the Pax Americana in your opinion? As you saw in Plutarch's document, and as you will see in American documents later, both the Romans and the early Americans placed tremendous emphasis on the question of character. What were the foundations of these different definitions of character? What did they have in common? Interestingly, during the empire the Romans eventually began to fear that they had strayed from their simple values. Plutarch’s examination of Marcus Cato, in his Lives, displays a romantic longing for a perceived simpler and purer time. Did the Roman character change? Is this happening, or has this already happened, in the United States? Has the American character changed? Is character key to a successful state? Your thoughts... (I know this was a long post, but so much to think about here)...

19 comments:
The article was kind of hard to understand but I think I got some of the basic ideas. Plurachles was saying that a leader shouldn't be involved in the government simply because he has nothing better to do or because he wants to obtain power. He said that a good leader interests himself in all aspects of the government and does not remain ignorant to any problems. He also said that people often point out flaws in leaders that wouldn't be very big deals if those flaws were in regular people. This was interesting to me because it reminded me of the presidential race, especially Sarah Palin.
Well, at the beginning he talks about the rulers in low positions by saying they have nothing else to do so they go into politics, but then he tells what they should do to be good rulers. He also makes a big deal of keeping the people happy and and having the ruler make a good example for his people by not getting drunk(maybe talking about Alexander?)
I think I agree with this passage and his ideas. He says that a good leader holds himself high up and looks at everything whether it be small or big. But then likewise he says that everyone is looking at him, so som of the small flaws that would have passed in a commoner or citizen would not go unnoticed in a ruler. In the beginning the passage states that a ruler should want to lead in the sake of having order and a well run society, not for "vain glory"; i think that should be the right attitude of all societies, and i think it also helps it to run a little smoother.
pretty hard stuff...
What I got from it was these points
-A statesman should care about the state and not be a ruler out of greed and lack of something else to do
-He hould change himself(make himself more appealing) so others will more likely follow his lead
-A statesman should love his country and do what is best for it
-He should do what is best for the country by slowly inluencing other statesmen
-He should treat other statesmen with respect unless they're messing stuff up
-Then change those people by making them realize moral points, not violently attacking and insulting their views
-A state works better when there is a type of executive branch
-However the emperor or whatever the position is called should not be too much depended on or have to rule too much
I do see similarities between this and Confucianism values. Very moral, and using statesmen to lead by example.
I also see great similarities to America. It's funny we were reading Patrick Henry's "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!" speech, and this is very similar. It questions character and morals.
When we were talking about Julius Caesar and Augustus I instantly thought of the presidential election. Obama and McCain promise CHANGE to a society in which most people are unhappy about the government and how things work in it. Could they gain power beyond what the constitution allows for stability?
In order for a leader to know what they are doing. They have to know everything that is going on. If a leader doesnt know all then there will be chaos that occurs. A leader needs to be available to put up with any crisis and nothing should come as a surprise. The article fails to tell that a person can be a good leader but still have bad intentions. for example Hitler. He was a really good leader. he knew how to lead his people in chaos to put germany back together and to get the people to basically eat out of his hand. I like to think of him as a mouse trap with cheese and everything. he lures in the mouse and once hes got them hes got them. Although he was a good leader. he had TERRIBLE intentions.so some of the things that makes a good leader dont exactly fit his discription. i dont know for sure if that was what the article was saying but i tried to get as much as i could.
I got very little from the article, but i'll just say what i did get. I think plutarch is saying that a man who rules should be more serious about the matter, and they have to be someone who loves their country more than life, they have to be commited to the guarding of the country. Also, they should give up some things to achieve that. i think what he meant by saying like "should do so slowly" or whatever, is that a ruler should bring together the country slowly and by parts. I think he was tying to say that if a person does everything fast it will destroy the country and if someone does it slowly, then they could win the confidence of the people.. putarch also says something about having a strong base for a government and the rest would be onits own, to me that doesn't seem too right. because there wouldn't be any checks and balances and that would cause for disaster, cause someone can try to overcome the power and have the ultimate power. im not sure if my transaltion of his writings is correct, but i just put out what i think is right.
This passage I thought was all about Plutarch’s opinion on a good leader. He thinks that a leader should want to govern and already have a plan for his style of governing. He also says that a leader should be concerned with all of the common peoples problems and try to provide them with aid. I think that the reason Plutarch wasn’t concerned with the structure of a state is that he was thinking of a good leader. He thought that once a leader had been established then you could worry about the rest of the structure of the state. I think that Plutarch was attracted to Roman rule because he was a supporter of a republic ruling style.
This really belongs in Comparing Greek Politics post, but not many people will see it there since its older...
A couple of days ago my dad gave me a copy of what my grandfather ( who was Greek)wrote from either memory or from a book (can't remember what my dad said) about ten or so years ago. I thought it would be a very insightful document. It's sort of like the pledge of allegiance.
It Reads:
Oath taken by eighteen year old youths of Athens 200 B.C.
"I will never bring disgrace to my country by any act of dishonesty or cowardice, nor ever desert my suffering comrades in the ranks; I will fight for the ideals and sacred things of the nation, both alone and with many; I will revere and obey the nations['s] laws and do my best to incite a like respect and reverence in those about me; I will strive unceasingly to quicken the public's sense of civic duty; and then?[<--hard to read, it's in cursive], in all these ways, I will strive to transmit this nation not only, not less, but greater, better and more beautiful than it transmitted to me."
I agree with Madison; this article was pretty confusing. But who is Stratocles and Dromoclides?
I think Plurachles was saying that a leader on a well grounded principle will get the publics attention and that it would make him honorable. Then he mentions some other stuff about what he doesn't like in a man. I'm not sure, but i think it had something to do with the quote "I love my children, but my country more."
hey guys, i see that several of you seem unsure about your understanding of the document, but for the most part, it looks like you all are getting the essence of it. good job! this document is certainly written on a higher level, it is challenging, but it seems we're getting pretty good with this now. i'm proud. let's keep the discussion going though. especially in comparing what we're seeing here in rome to china and to our own republic. and mr. livaditis, thanks for including that pledge. muy interestante!
Plutarch is sharing his opinion on the qualities of a noble and worthy leader and what would be best for the society as a whole. He also points out a fact that a leader's personal flaws are more exploited and frowned upon than those of regular civilians which is still common today in all politics except in extreme dictatorships where censoring removes all of that. Many of the qualities admiral in the Greek world are many of those admired today such as courage, care for the common man, and political motive other than promotion of reputation. All which will probably be mentioned in political ads seen around this fall as well as the exploitation of candidates flaws making Greek political virtues similiar to the ones we have today.
I had a hard time understanding this document and it was confusing for me. I think the point Plurachles was saying was that a good leader should be there for all of the right reasons and pays attention to all of a big problems and small problems, and as a result he will be a good leader. Another thing he says is that people tend to be very critical of the leader but if they had those problems, it wouldn't be a big deal.
I agree with Madison on this article. I think it was confusing. Plurachles said that a good leader is active in all the government not just because of the popularity he could earn. In common living people flaws would not be as pointed out as in government officials. He talks of which the rulers should make a good and safe influence on the people.
Pletarch thinks that by drowing away our problems in amusement(bread and circus)the place will fall. He was writing history. History repeats itself...as he saw and we do(maybe we don't, which is why it does). This is crazy scary. I don't want America to fall... but is it already>? ("Oh man, my xbox broke. What do you mean you can't drive me to the store! Since when is it to expensive to make a meaningless drive to the store?") And we just soak up the fun.
---
Once a leader has power and authority, the people must trust the leader. Change in small strides. (He says "to what is better". Is that not an opinion? The leader gets to decide what is better. Does that show the gov. Plutarch lives in.) Good manners--appeareance-just like politics, eh? "statesmen are not only liable to give an account of what they say or do in public; but there is a busy enquiry made into their very meals, beds, marriages, and every either sportive or serious action…" This is seriously exactly like politics here.
Scars, etc. are seen as bad to him. Well, it seems war scars are viewed with good pretence today. Even though, blemishes and appeareances in general definitly apply...
(etc.)
I don't know if this is something I can agree or disagree on moreso than just say opinions on certian things. As Mr. P. said, history is mostly opinions, and this was Plutarch's-based on history he had learned. It is very interesting the similarites between then and there, and here and now.
The article to me was a little confusing.
But from what i understood Plurachles
was saying that a good
leader should be there for the right reasons to help the community and o solve or at least try to solve the big and small issues
not just be there for the popularity
or money
Yes, i agree with everyone else. This article was confusing but i think the basic ideas of the article were that a leader shouldnt really worry about the government but more about the peoples well being? He talks more about the people and focuses on their well being, not so much about the order. It focuses more on making the people happy and not so much on the government?
Unfortunately my computer(Windows Vista, blech!) won't bring up the document, so I can't share my opinions*sob*...
But I still have to ask, what would you compare the Great Depression in the US to in Roman society? Severe economic poverty, social instability, political inefficiency, the works!
This as alot of people said was really hard to understand. I see they talk about how to be a good leader and how to act. They also show how not to be a good emperor. Most of the lower class were politician who just joined.
i didnt get much out of this article it was just basically over plutachs view of a good leader.. and it says that u should do things slowly and not rushing things cuz it will go better and a good leader hould give up stuff for his country
Post a Comment