Sadly, we are beginning to already see a decline in women's rights on the world scene as we enter the classical period of world history. Through the writings of Confucius, we begin to get an early idea of the place of the woman in Chinese society specifically (especially when we consider Confucius' Five Key Relationships). However, it is oftentimes of more benefit, when considering a woman's place in any society, to go to the women as the ultimate source. Fortunately, we have one such source when consider the role of women in Classical China--Pan Chao. Oftentimes referred to as China's "foremost woman scholar," she served unofficially as imperial historian to Emperor Ho (89-105 CE) while acting as an instructor in history, classical writing, astronomy, and mathematics to the Empress Teng and her ladies-in-waiting. Her success in overcoming contemporary restraints on women was due to an exceptional education, which she attributed to her scholarly parents. As a historian, moralist, and royal servant, Pan Chao wrote numerous literary works, including narrative poems, commemorative verses, eulogies, and her famous Lessons for Women. This brief educational treatise, written expressly for women and the first of its kind in world history, offers interesting insights into the Chinese perceptions of the ideal woman as well as first-century Chinese customs. It contains advice in matters of customs and manners for girls in her family so that they might not "humiliate both your ancestors and your clan" (REMEMBER: filial piety). Pan Chao's manual was the most successful and durable advice book for women in Chinese history, helping to support a firmly patriarchal gender system. Click on the following link to read excerpts from Pan Chao's fascinating Lessons For Women. When you finish reading her essay, I would like to get your thoughts on a few things. First of all, how does Pan Chao define womanhood and women's roles? How do these definitions relate to other aspects of Chinese society such as Confucianism? Let's not stop there though, there is so much depth and richness in this particular document that we must give it the thorough discussion it deserves! After reading the document, what would you say Pan Chao consders the principal duty of a husband to be? What about the duty of the wife? How and why are they complemaentary parts of the natural order of the universe (did you detect any daoist thought in her explanation?)? It's interesting that in the essay, Pan Chao claims to be inherently unintelligent. Does she mean it? Furthermore, why do you think she makes such statements? Why does Pan Chao advocate that women be educated? Do her stated reasons strike you as her true motives? Finally, what was it about Lessons For Women, in your opinion, that caused it to be so highly regarded by Confucian scholars over the following centuries? Can is there anything about Pan Chao's background story that can serve as an inspiration to the modern woman of 2008? I am eager to hear your thoughts on any or all of these topics for discussion, but please make sure you do READ THE DOCUMENT FIRST. This is a very important piece of history to take a look at. Unfortunately, women have been written out of history over the centuries. Fortunately though, you're with a guy this year that sees women's history as extremely important. If we truly believe that we must look at history from several points of view, and if we truly are serious about several diverse interpretations of history, we must include the history of women's roles in all societies in our studies. The only way to truly understand such a history is to go to women first as the ultimate source. That's why I want to discuss this very unique document. Your thoughts then...
63 comments:
Well i think she defines the womens roles as very passive and that they almost seem robot like to me they have to have some sort of perfect character image type. Like i agree that yes maybe sometimes we should just like be calm and have humility but i dont think that women should have to like put up with everyones crap just becasue its what women are suppose to do i think they should also stand up for themselves and also i disagree with where she said that the daughter-in-law has to do everything that the mother-in-law says. I mean that like not right what if she has a horrible mother-in-law. There are somethings in that passage or rule code thing that just wouldnt work in todays society.
Parts of the lessons for women infuriates me. As soon as the baby is born they put her under a bed to signify weakness?! what? and they give her a broken piece of pottery to play with. This is already setting the role for women at the time they're born to work in the house and obey their husband and elders. I personally don't understand why women were inferior to men because they can give birth!
I completely agree with you guys. I mean they put the women down as soon as they are born. What's so special about men that's not about women. If you want a relationship then both sides should be equal. Even though Chao is intelligent she says she is unintelligent. I guess what she's trying to say is that you have to make yourself seem dumb. According to her women are like puppets. I'm sure that she herself doesn't like that but I guess she has to. The only reason why this book was thought well by Confucius people is because it puts women in a role that they want them to be. Also, it follows filial piety and the four main things of Confuciusnism. Seriously in today's world, I doubt most women would be even doing. I thought that China was a little bit better in keeping women equal. But it most definetely is not! The only reason some women still endure this today is because they don't want the effect to hurt their children. They could easily divorce their husband but they suffer so their children don't have to go through the pain of seeing their parents seperate. That's how it is in some Indian families and others. All we've learned so far in the past two weeks we've been just learning from a men's point of view. I feel it important to see it from a women's point of view. I'd like to know who put the men in charge anyways?!
i contradict on some parts of what cori says because if the woman gives birth to the baby she should have to stay home and take care of so if shes home then cook and clean to...that came out wrong so i hope you understand.. but on the other hand they shouldnt be lowerd to the men men at birth that doesnt really show a sign of weakness it shows that there society back then sucks...!!!!! There society back then didnt have daycares and babysitters so yea i agree with daniela with her saying that there some things that just wouldnt work in todays society honestly i think that some men should have been inferior to women or at least a equal part!!
Coming from the century we live in, the views on women in society and at home have changed quite drastically. I'm sure that back then, there would be no chance of any women, not even one as outspoken and uh radically feminist as Hillary Clinton, would have a slight chance at even gaining a political position, due to sex. Pan Chao was an intelligent women, but her views on women make it out to seem like the women is a lower class than men, which was widely thought at that time. How the women were supposed to keep up with those standards, i don't know. Women should have some humility, respect, and honor, but i think that the line is crossed when Chao mentions implicit obedience and "obeying" her husband. Obedience is something used for animals/pets. The relationship between a man and wife should be equal, not with the husband in control. The woman at that time were expected to be modest and accepting of all of these requests, which i think is ridiculous. They are just brainwashed to the point where Chao calls herself unintelligent, and continues to say that she is an unworthy writer and unsophisticated. Her writing had a good intention, but the outcome brought years and years of unjust treatment towards women.
you raise an interesting point mr. hong. do you folks sort of get the feeling that pan chao's background story doesn't result in what the modern woman would consider successful and enlightened? one looks at the fact that she was well educated, even broke down barriers that was point in front of women at the time, and then one reads her ideas and it's almost like the two don't coincide. but let's look at things in CONTEXT. we're talking han era china here. was there anything mentioned in the document that could viewed as a liberating idea for women at the time?
Mr prill i dont thing the passage said any thing or implied the idea of leberating for women then but maybe i missing something!?!?!
well perhaps some implications can be made. i agree, by modern standards there is little to be considered liberating presented here. but in the context of the times, what about her call for equal education? what exactly is she getting here? could she perhaps be saying, sort of off the record if you will, that with an education equal to men that women could break some of the chains she describes? is the document contridictory? hmm... is there anything else here that could be liberating for the time period? i see at least one other thing? what do you all see?
I would have to strongly disagree with kell I feel like if the women has to indoor all the pain and suffering of giving birth to a child then she should not have have to do all the house hold chores along with take care of the child (children). In my oppinion it should be equal out side and inside the house I feel that the men should help out in the house concidering the women has practicly been kissing the feet of the men and the elders since the day she was born! For example being placed under a bed to show that her place is ment to be below the men, "What are you serious?" And honestly I dont think a women should ever have to belittle herself because a men sees her as infereier to himself! Also as we said in class they like to abuse there power so all though its supposed to be benificial for both parties I feel that the women are the ones who get the short end of the stick in this so called "give and take!"
im sorry i wrote that wrong i ment some women being inferior to men if they have the same education and mr Prill maybe some of the womens qualifications!?
It is obvious to me that Pan Choa is completely angry about the way women are being treated in this society. She points out how they are labeled stupid and below men. So what does she do? She writes a book. That old saying about "Speak with your actions, not your words", well, Pan Choa saw that statement for what it is, total crap. People are blind, not deaf. You've got to tell them straight out for anyone to get it. She didn't do something stupid like go killing a bunch of men, she used her gift of an education to speak to the world. Unfortunately, writing a book must have counted as an action. No one saw this for what it was, a rebellious speech. Women poured over this thing for hours, taking every word seriously. I admit it is possible for Pan Choa to have really thought this way, and wanted other women to think this way too, but I highly doubt it with the way she chose to express herself. Did she seriously say "I want women to be 'perfect'" and then tell them that they live to stand in the corner? As for the whole "women are lower than men" thing, yes, it was unfair and like many things we adopted from the Chinese, this is one of them. Even today women get paid less than men for the exact same job. I think that the only thing a women should be limited to is leading countries. We are way to emotional to try to keep a bunch of people safe, happy, and alive. Also, after men mature I think they are usually the more logical thinkers, and they have an unbreakable determination...which can be a bad thing as we have seen, but it's important too. I'm not just talking Hilary Clinton here, sorry if anyone is offended but that's just the way I feel, and maybe one day some woman will come along and prove me wrong.
i think that woman were doing jobs, such as gathetring, until civilizations started. then jobs started getting harder and families began to get bigger. as men went off to work, woman stayed at home to tend to the children because tending to children had been what they always did.
i also think the authority given to men was taken overboard. for instance,. the mother inlaw had total control over the wife.
In this writing Chao says that the womans roles were to clean and obey and respect. They were to respect their husbands which makes sense but the husbands duty should be to return the respect for their wives. When the babies are born they are right off the bat put refered to as "not good enough" when put under the table. Being refered to as this when being a baby gives men little reason to think they will need to respect women.
alina venick
the women are being treated in china the same way they have throughout history. men have taken advantage of the fact women can't fight for nine months when going through a pregnancy and they take advantage that they are anatomically more muscular than women. women are just the same intellectually as men, and many are now physically as fit as men, though back then they wouldn't let that happen by saying that a woman's role was in the home. once men could take advantage of that, they started raising girls to think that.
the way that men would put down women and think that they were superior and stronger could be said to make them more violent. the example being in romeo and juliet, when romeo switches into male mode to kill tybalt. or how juliet keeps a level head better than romeo, though this could just be the individual character.
either way, women are equal to men, but because of the physical disadvantage women were put down all around the world.
chao has been brain washed by society. her lessons may work for her, but i think society needs to let women make their own choices. i know this is ancient china, but think abou the fact that women couldn't even vote in the u.s. until the 1900s. men took that place at the beginning and continued with it as much as possible. even now you notice how people are always telling girls how ladies should act, whereas when a man does the same thing it's fine.
Not only is this piece biast but is also condradictory like Prill said. Pan Chao was in fact breaking most of the rules set down in her passage becasue she her self was superior to most men at the time being that she was well educated and culturally diverse, but she still demotes women to a lower spot on the todum pole. Even though she does say that women should be subservient to men she also says women deserve education. Making her condradict herself again by making women equal to men in education. I feel the whole piece is condradiction. She contradicts her education and breaking through barriers by demoting herself and all women to lower level.
I think Pan Chao says she's inheritley unintelligent because her mother and grandmother subjected to these sexist rules.(of course they had just about no choice)Pan Chao thought differently.She wanted to be able to express her emotions, because with those set of rules, you basically couldn't.With those rules the women,one, had to obey their mother-in-law, and two, they had to do everything that women were 'supposed' to do, with a smile and good intentions.It makes me irate to even fathom how Pan Chao's daily life was.Geez how monotonous. If pre-america studied how that went for china, then mabye womens "roles" in america now,would be quite different. Just think, if women all over the world, including China,were never treated differently back then, how do you think the 'instinctive roles' of women would be different today?
Probably just like everyone else, i completely disagree with Pan Chao's theory/lesson. A female human was treated as an aminal or sometimes, as a slave. The filial piety, respect for the elderlies, were applied in their lives to the extremes where women were to serve the family. This was not about respect; it was more of obedience and submission. "Always let her seem to tremble and to fear." What kind of a inhumane "LESSON" is that? Women are humans too, not a prey to be eaten; however, this was the case. Also, it talks about the Ying and Yang and harmony between the husband and the wife, but why is the wife blamed for the quarrels and why is the wife supposed to "stay in one's proper place" and "honor and serve them?" Yielding(Ying) does not mean obedience! Obediencee is not harmony; obedience is not love.
However, ironically, I understand the bases of these roles for women. I think women were mistreated in this way because of agriculture. Of course, men were usually stronger than women, so they were the ones who worked more on the fields. A family needed someone to do the housechores like cleaning and cooking and also usually the husband's parents lived with them so the women need to take care of them; women were doing houseworks most of the time(and carrying childerens). However, this process was carried to the extremes and turned out to be a slavery rather than houseworker.
This is a horrible, horrible rule for women, and I am so glad that people moved on from agriculture to technology to make the real "balanced" society for both women and men.
While being a girl may make me biased on this issue, I try to look at this issue like anyone. I think that she claims unintelligent because as a woman, she was never educated. Why would she need to be educated if she lived in a patriarchal society? She says that girls are not educated at a young age like boys are. Boys get an education at 8 and are ready for cultural training by 15. She does wonder why girls don't get educated but she doesn't come up with and answer. However, I do think that she is smarter than she lets on and she only says that she is stupid because that's what's expected. I do not necessarily agree with everything she says about being humble. Humility means not being proud or arrogant, but it does not mean that you should just let people abuse you just because you are a girl. She also says that by laughing that you will bring disgrace upon yourself but I don't think this is true either. Her job is to perform domestic duties and to please her husband and not bring disgrace upon any of her family and while some women are perfectly content doing this, not all want to be "stay at home mom's." She says that you are to be controlled by your husband and that as the wife, you must do anything that he asks of you but it does not work the other way around. It’s not equal. This is where gender separated work starts because she talks about how wives are to stay home and do "womanly" labor while the man does his separate work. This is where we get the idea that women cannot do certain things that only men do. The last thing I find different is that not only is she subjected to her husband but also to his parents in the way that she must do whatever they tell her even when it’s totally wrong. So if they told her to go cut off her arm then she would have to do that. I don't know about some people but I don't think I would do that if it was my in-laws.
I think that by Pan Chao writing this she just made the women even more inferior. She gave them guidelines to follow that made women like robotic slaves who were to afraid to do anything to gain any sort of rights. I mean by saying that you should obey your husband and do anything they say is just crazy. However, I'm sure that back then women would have been punished for not doing exactly as they were told.
At the time, women went through more pain during childbirth than men did if they were wounded in battle. Women would die to give an heir to the family, and yet they have to act like servants to the husbands. Also, the men get breaks in the winter when all the farming is done and all the animals that need to be slaughtered are. A woman must work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. The only way they get a break is once they turn into elders. Then they will finally get some respect. Female subordination disgusts me to the point of throwing up.
**to ALL MEN WHO THINK WOMEN ARE THE WEAKER GENDER**
DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU'RE BETTER? i REALLY hope not.
wow. just...wow. okay, you do NOT give a baby a piece of broken pottery no matter how insignificant!!! what's wrong with you men?!?!
men, do you bear children? i don't think so.
are you as smart by nature as us? no.
okay. men, do you really think having a baby is easy?! sure, YOU had fun. let's have more! NO!FOR NINE MONTHS a woman puts up with changes to EVERYTHING from body, to moods, to comfort, to tasts, to having no life because you can't MOVE. then, you actually give birth, which is said to feel like ripping up your stomache 10 times over. even WITH medicines. AND IT'S NOT EVEN OVER!! then, you stay up all night because IT is hungry. FOR MONTHS!! sure. you help out when you can, like ONCE out of the 50 times EACH DAY! ya. and, on TOP of all that, because we don't have enough of work to do, we have to take care of YOU(food, laundry, etc.) the HOUSE and any other children there might be. AND sometimes, even on top of all THAT, we also get JOBS!
ya. we all know women could be president, so obviously we're just as qualified as you.
do you really think you're better now? because if you do, i'de watch out. we don't like that. ;)
wow! i'm loving this discussion. let's keep it going both here and in class tomorrow. i tend to agree with miss persyn's thoughts here though. do you all detect just a bit of sarcasm and disgust in this document, perhaps even making a mockery of the system? if that's the case, has this document been long misunderstood by confucian men? hmm...interesting.
haha. notice how all the guys suddenly feel the need to post on a diff. subject! ya. u better not say we should be treated like this!
I think the reason she might have done so well in breaking down the barriers between men and women is because some of her ideas did bring contridictions. The men in ancient China probably did not feel as much pressure from her compared to if she had been publishing gender equality ideas.
What the heck was that woman thinking? It was practically women having no rights at all. I think the whole baby thing is stupid. I mean common..a 3 day old baby put under a bed to show weakness? Can't everyone already tell that the baby is weak because it can't do anything at all. Next is the potsherd. Why would you give a 3 year old baby girl a broken piece of pottery? to cut herself even though she is not even big enough to even hold it herself! and plus is states that the potsherd was to let her practice labor and consider it her primary duty to be industrious. Well, there's no hope for that baby to be anymore then a hard-working laborer.
Over all, I don't think I like Lessons thing at all.
if she was against the unfair treatment of women then why contridict yourself while speaking out? is it a way of disguising your true feelings?
i think as jobs got harder with civilaization developing, families started growing and there were less things to do so families increased, and thus people started thinking that women should be at home with the growing families. while i believe women are capable of accomplishing more then just watching children and doing house-hold chores, it seems to be almost what women are better at. if you leave a man to do something, it wont always turn out right, no offense guys.
Women play a almost too good to be true character in her passage. Of course there is some truth to the passage such as women should respect their husbands, but one thing i didn't read about was that respect being reciprocated back toward the woman. So basically a woman was not a human. She was a doormat. A relationship should be equal in order for it to work, and unfortunately we do not see this happening in that time period.
I agree with what pretty much everyone else said. And the only reason she wants women to get an education is so that they can better understand how they're supposed to act. The thing is though, this is how she was brought up, and what she was taught. In her society this was the acceptable norm, though to us it seems really far off.
Pan Chao says that a womans role is to serve her husband and that the husbands role is to control the wife, so it seems based on her writing that women were kind of like slaves. Also she talked about humility and how its important for women to learn, but i think that humility is a lesson that everyone should learn. One last thing is how she said that the baby girls are placed under the be to signify weakness, when really the women are the stronger ones havong to go through with what they do and not complain.
I believe Pan Chao was trying to help women find their niche in Chinese society. In the patriarchal society the Chinese had that would have been the only way for a women to survive, was to conform to their ways. Just like animals trying to find their niche. There are producers:i.e peasant farmers/ consumers:i.e Aristocrats/ and finally there are predators:i.e kings. just like a food chain, each level feeding off the other.The way Chinese society made women under men in hierarchical rule, because who were making the laws and ethics; wealth men. These men didn't want wives that were not loyal, trustworthy, or good to them. And in many cases if these ethics were not followed then they would be punished. so going back to my food web analogy, women became like a small woodland creature just trying to survive, compared to the fierce predator of men that they try and co-habitate with. So I believe her works were a blessing, other wise could women have know what would get them through their marriages successfully.
[DISCLAIMER:in no way am i trying to say women are lesser than men, but in this situation they were treated as that.]
I would have to agree partly with park thomas. Ever snce the beginning of these "civilizations" women's rights have become less and less. It's almost like human value has become worth less too for a woman. Before, in a hunter/gatherer type society, men and women were about equal because both contributed to the community in a positive way. Now, or at least the time period we're discussing, things have only changed in the view of equality. Women are still capable of doing things men can, they're jsut belittled and assumed to be worth less than men. Just because a woman has a baby does not mean that it's ALL hers. I mean...the man helped. And cooking and doing house chores all day? The man lives in the house and eats i'm pretty sure. So if he wants to keep living and eating, he should help his own sorry self. In som ways, I think that the women are stronger than the men not necessarily physically but definitely mentally and maybe emotionally. Woman have honor and respect their husbands, They are also loyal. ...maybe not by choice byut still they are loyal.
This discussion is very controversial and i think the women need to gain som rights, fast.
:)
I know that Puting the baby under the bed is supose to prove that the baby is weak, but then why is it only for females? Aren't boy babies just as weak? And if there must be sexism then why chose the female. Yes, the males were outside farming but without their wife giving birth there would be no children to help the father. Haveing the baby girl aslos play with broken pottery made me so mad. NO WONDER ALOT OF KIDS DIED!! Even if this is all to show females are weaker, what it really shows is how weak the mindset of the community is.
What is so special about men?! I mean yes they do appear to have the most important jobs and blah blah blah, but wouldnt you think if there was going to be a steady relationship both sides would need equal treatment?..No, instead the men just over power, and take charge.. Women shouldn't have to and don't deserve to be treated with disrespect. I wish the women would have made a bigger effort to stand up and not be afraid to stand up when someone tries to put them under their authority..
She has some good points, yet more points that get under my skin. Yes you should respect you elders, but don't completely give up what your belief system is. And whats with all the crap about women being "submissive" while men get to be "dominant"? Women deserve just as much respect as men do. It isn't right that women just have to sit back and accept the abuse (verbal, emotional, or physical) just because she's afraid to bring disrespect to her family! This entire subject is very controversial because you'll have the guys who are all for it and I believe all of the girls who've posted have been infuriated by at least one part of this essay.
Of course there are things that a woman should or shouldnt do, thats life protocol. i dont think a woman should be completely aggressive, but not at all passive. Never should a woman feel inferior, because one did infact create us all.
I feel like i'm going to get jumped if i say anything wrong here haha. Okay, I think the reasoning for the wife having to stay at home and do the housework is that since they are already at home watching the kid(s) they could do other things while the male in the family goes out and makes money. This however has gone corrupt and the woman is sometimes forced to do too much while the male does nothing. I hope I was equal on both sides of the discussion and insulted nobody.
I agree with Daniela, it does seem very robotic. Not all women need to be like that, and some of it sounds disrespectful! Honestly im glad we arent treated like this because is just so....aggravating!!! We don't need to always have humility! sometimes we need to speak our minds and just be heard! and also to go along with Cori's comment, i completely agree! i would want my daughter to grow up strong and be able to handle herself! not put her under a bed to signify weakness! and what self respecting child wants a broken peice of pottery! honestly! who came up with this crap!? i mean, maybe sometimes we are over the top, but its teh freedom we deserve and this essay just pisses me off because i wouldn't want my daughters to be acting like this! and Kell, a woman has teh right to do WHATEVER she wants with her child! if she wants to support it then fine! if she wants to leave the child at home with their father, then the father better do it, because we women have power now, and you most definitely should NOT underestimate us. and if you think that we are MEANT to stay home and do all that crap just because a woman gave birth to the child then you are sadly mistaken! who's fault is it that the woman is preganant anyways!! u think she crawled on top of herself and do it? no i didnt think so! so stick that in your juice box!
Pan Chao describes women's role as putting oneself below others and losing the autonomy. I agree that humility and modesty are good, but I have to disagree with the part about implicit obedience. What is wrong is wrong, and if you know that something is not right to do, you shouldn't do it no matter what. Telling them to do what is not right to do and expecting them to obey it is treating them like slaves or animals. It talks about the harmony of husband and wife by relating it to Daoist taiji, but this contrasts with Daosit Zhuangzi's philosophy that everything has equal amount of value(齊物論). It is more closely related with Confucianism because it talks about filial piety and respects to husbands and parents-in-law.
While I was reading, I kept picturing Mulan. Many of the things she said of women Mulan did. I always noticed the patriarcial society in it, but disney sure toned it down.
I don't think I could handle living like that, even if I had been raised in this sort of society. It would be truly terrible living your whole life afraid and submissive. In all the stories we hear of things being down to women, in all cultures, most of the females say they would fight back, run away, or even kill themselves rather than be controlled, afraid, harmed, unloved, etc. That is how we, with such freedom are raised... just as they were... and just as it is hard for us to break form ours, it must be for them as well. We are willing to live with discrace, so that we can LIVE. They wouldn't have dared.
If love is harmony between a man and a woman... I immediately would assume - - not =
One controlling, one submitting = completing each other.
Is that why in Yin-Yang signs one goes over the other? The black bubble curve pushes the white bubble below it? Interesting.
I never really thought of it that way.
It is strange that women have let this sort of thing happen all of the world for...as far back as we go. In Christianity, isn't this similar to how Adam and Eve were? --http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/369140/woman_before_eve_the_story_of_lilith.html?cat=37
-------
check that out. maybe true, maybe not? A lot of people(even Christians) do not think they were real at all...
------
Living in a patriarchial society, it is helpful that she worte these for young women to learn the ways of the society. If they had all had to learn these from experience, many wold have gone through discrase 1st, among other things. It is basically studies for women. And i'd say it sure would be helpful. But with everyone learning this, and being afraid, there would never be a woman who wouldn't know not to do something, so as to make a change in society, unless she went agaisnt what she knew was right-or wrong.
Therefore, I bring you back to Mulan. Dang was she helpful in my own personal view of how women should be...basically against the Chinese's own view of how women should be.
respond to dante':
what do you mean a woman SHOULD act a certian way? ANYONE can act however they want!?
-not to freak you out.
You may have been a woman once before.
and women we did/do technically bring people into this world, and it is increadibly painful and annoying because it takes about 9 months for us! but males sure help/ed a little for a few seconds. lol.
Delaney, I completly agree!!!
None of the children should be put under the bed! You need both children. Didn't they just say Yin Yang! complete harmony between to two?! Can't they both just work together. We have seen that both are capable of both? Or if you have such a problem with women why not just kill all the women!! Ooops, ya did! What now?! You're jusst as dead!
Who is stronger? the one who pushes the other down? or the one who handles the pushing and fights against it? is THAT harmony?
I disagree with many things she said. I mean, yeah, women should be lady like (have good manners and all in front of other people) but we shouldn't be treated like mens' slaves. Men can take care of themselves obviously. And why would daughter-in-laws do everything their mother in law tells them? Yes, respect her, but she can't boss her daughter in law around.
I don't like this article.
Hahaha.
But its interesting.
Sapp
Why is everyone just looking at the women's point of view? Think of the men here. They've been raised like this, those men were raised to think that women were below them. And men really did have a lot of work to do back then, and as far as the work issue goes it was probably about equal; tending to the fields, the house, and keeping the family alive and wealthy. It's hard tending a farm today, can you even imagine back then?Pan Choa was probably the first woman to see that putting women below men was a bad thing.
Not that the men should have had the right to beat their wives or anything, but I doubt there was really much love in a marriage, only respect. It seeems to me like in a lot of old cultures marriage was solely for making children. It seems like all we're doing on this blog is saying how unfair this was, but how would they know? Did any MEN agree with Pan Choa?
And Katherine, you're acting like it's all the men's fault. It was the women who put their daughters below men wasn't it? They helped that tradition too!
People, start thinking about the MEN!
I still don't think this is right or anything, but I don't think we're seeeing all sides here.
Lora Persyn
my goodness. that sounds like as soon as a woman enters into marriage, they volutarily become slaves to everyone elses wishes but their own. and for what? to "not disgrace the family"? does anyone really care that much? I think i would rather not me an automaton even if it meant "family disgrace", thank you.
I kind of agree with Lora. It seems to me that, back then, the relationship between a man and a woman shouldn't be called a marriage. I think it was more like a partnership for baby making. Pan Chao definitely seems like she's criticizing the patriarchal society but she's doing it discretely. I think in a way she proved she was smarter than the men of her time because her book was criticizing there system of male dominance but they adopted it as an important piece of Confucian writing. This proves that some women are smarter than some men and some men are smarter than some women. In general, I think the two sexes are equal and should be treated with equal respect and I think thats the point Pan Chao was trying to make.
In reference to Lora's comment I do agree that we shouldn't dwell on only the woman's point of view, but also the man's, just to be fair, because I'm sure their role in society was very easy either. But I also 100% agree that the fact that she called herself "stupid by nature" and unintelligent is just sad! And the fact that the daughter-in-law has to do whatever the mother-in-law says even if she was completely wrong just proves that these poor women had no self-pride and obviously were taught that they were the "weak" gender. How ridiculous! I guess this conflict between gender roles is a little like the whole "Confucian vs. Legalism" argument. Women definitely should respect their husbands and elders, and should have to contribute to society in some way (housework, a job, etc.), but they should NOT be told that they are inferior and have to act like slaves without minds of their own. I think the solution to this is comparable to the "C vs. L" debate in the fact that there has to be a happy medium. Women should respect, while also being respected. Period.
:)
Im going 2 quote Gustafson for a moment "Who is stronger? the one who pushes the other down? or the one who handles the pushing and fights against it? is THAT harmony?" I would have 2 say in a away i some what agree with what your getting at but in my oppinoin it really is not as hostel as this implies but at the same time it is the women who appear to be getting pushed around here even though its supposed to be equal and to me it seem like the women are stronger cause they go through all the work and trouble with her home and kids and with what ever the mother in law and husband tell her to do, and she still just puts up with it even though women are just as capable as men if not more! ggrrr i lost my train of thought...oh yes but they still just as Pan Chao act like they are treated, and belittle themselves because they are told that is their place since they were a born yes i think a women should be kind and respect there elders but i also think that they should not feel inferear to men! And i feel if women should of followed Confucius' Five Key Relationships to a T then men should have to follow Ren & Li, and Junzi to a T!!!
At the beginning she was talking about being so careful not to disgrace her parents. She also didn't seem to have a very high view of herself, due to the way women were treated. But she seemed to be trying to get over men being over her.
I think society should still be patriarchal, but women deserve more respect than what they were getting in early China.
wow...............the way she explains how a women should be is like in a fairy tale or something. i mean yea, we should respect our husbands, but shouldnt they give respect back?!?!?! for example if we were to do EVERYTHING for them and there was NO thank you, then its like what the crap?!!? i did all this freaking work and no thank you. if they want respect the better give respect back. what makes men so much better than women anyways?! we have to multitask like everyday.just like Katelyn Niemann said we have to do everything. (cooking, cleaning, laundry, taking care of the baby) and jobs on top of all that. and the whole putting a newborn baby under a bed to signify weakness?!?!i mean hello!!!!!!!! the baby probably cant even see a freaking thing....what do you expect?! for it to be super baby and pop right out?!and why would you give it a broke piece of pottery? for labor....and do what with it? the baby probably cant even hold it for crying out loud. i think that if there was something like this in the world today it would probably have the women to rebel and it will cause a whole new inside rebellion thing to happen.
I was thinking about a women's role in society and i even involved my parents oppinions, and they agree that a womans role in india is humiliating. the different cultures are amazing in differences. I honestly dont understand how men could treat women like their crap when they are the mothers of their own children and it made me realize how lucky the women in our society are. idk just my 2 cents.
I agree with lora that we should look from other points of view. It's not the men who were in a later generation's fault really. I mean, they were taught to treat women like that, but why didn't any of them think to help the women? Maybe some men did realize th disrespect for women, but couldn't do much because they were afraid to get trampled over for being weak or something...who know's? We can't know everything about history..so maybe. I don't agree with the fact that there are somethings a women should do and shouldn't do, because they can do whatever they want if the men can do so. The women should have revolted or something, then again they might have been afraid to get punished. But if they hadn't fallen under men in the first place then maybe they wouldn't have been in this situation. Really it's the fault of the people who put men in charge, that would be men! Why didn't any women say anything then...I'm not saying its the women's fault, but i'd say its both their faults. Why pressure someone, and why get pressured yourself?!
Cori, i agree with you. im from india, and there most villagers called women their shoes, which they can wear for a while and throw away. That is completely wrong! but things are a little better in india nowadays. we should be really lucky for te place we are today, because it could be alot worst..
wow! The fact that the chinese really believed this teaching is crazy. There is no way that anyone in this time period would even think of treating women this way. I agree that it sounds ilke we are just robots from the moment we are born, and it sounds like women do not have any hope to contribute in society at all. I guess that tending to their children and serving their husbands is something, but still, that isn't anything like it is today. Hopefully, just classical China does this to women, and not the later periods of China, because this is crazy!
unfortunately miss edwards, the situation is going to get much worse.
It's funny that in society women were considered the "mistake children". We aren't men, so we have no strength. Cross that off the check list. We look delicate, so we can't command or control. Cross that off the check list. So since women can't do anything helpful to our society, we should make them help the people who are contributing society! And that checks the box servant to man.
I agree with the first post. If women follow these rules,these "womanly qualifications", we become robot women. So, women and wives were already acting as slaves, just under cover. That's interesting.
This definitely sets the stage for women in the future and still does..
Women were there to clean. When they were married they were then like a slave to the husband's family. A women's mother in law was then in charge of her and made her do all the work. I think the mother in laws treated the new daughter in laws horribly because they were treated horribly. It's like a circle of servents.
I think that the men in society were totally dependant on the women and they wanted to make sure the women understood whio was in control by verbally and physically enforcing it. I think that the women in the families began noticing but were too afraid to do anything about it.
I guess the role for women were just to serve as tools for the men. They were only important for that reason.
It's as if they were just there for only that purpose and for physical labor.
Chinese women I think if some had some unique abilites skills or abilites then I think they were a little more valuable to the men. Like they knew how to assassinate?
I guess?
i think that women are treated very unfairly in china. woman and men are equal and i think it took us too long to realize that. but back then i bet that it was fine to the woman to get treated like that but really it isnt. i think that they should have rebelled or at least have stuck up for ones self
okay so what i am getting out of this is that women are inferior to men. i get that i dont agree with it but i understand it. but what i dont understand is why in Gods name would you put a new born baby under the bed??? that is pointless. and just a little unsanitary. lol. and why do men think that giving birth is a sign of inferiorness**?? umm i am pretty sure that no man on this earth could handle the pain of giving birth!!
The essay, though correct for that society in that time period, is highly unfair. It is a mockery to women, belittling them. Establishing their status as below a man right after birth, is morally (by today's standards) wrong. Of course sometimes, women should admit they can't do everything guys can because in truth we can't, therefore causing humility so some degree but not as much as described in the essay.
Post a Comment