Something that we must discuss is in what ways the Mesopotamians and Egyptians were similar and in what ways they were different. Are there common trends that exist between the two? Is this simply because they were linked together through trade or because there is a real commonality in the human experience? Can something like geography influence not only the lives of humans on earth, but also their worldview and their view of the gods and an afterworld? Something good to think about is how geographical conditions might have influenced the development of our own society here in the United States. In what ways has the isolation and agricultural bounty of the United States left Americans optimistic? Now that we know a little bit about the geographies of Mesopotamia and Egypt it is relatively simple for us to draw conclusions about how these early societies might have viewed themselves. What conclusions can we come to? How does the interaction of geography and climate with human society affect development? Is geography and climate still affecting our development right now at this very point in time? Hmm... interesting. Are we beginning to see the environment as a major historical actor? Your thoughts...
27 comments:
I say that the environment is an important historical actor. From the beginning(when farming started) people would settle near rivers that would be good to settle near as a water source, but would flood. Both the settlements of the Nile River Valley and Mesopotamia would have unpredictable floods due to their rivers. In that way religion was first born in the form of nature. It was know that if the river flooded the Storm God was angry. So they would think that praying to the Storm god or any other god would stop them from creating floods and washing their fields away. So as you see, even religion was centered around farming. Also religion was used as a way to convince people to do manual labor like irrigation which caused a social stratification, and what was the religion based upon? Nature!
Last night my parents were talking about the conflict between Georgia and Russia. Then the conversation got to a point where I had to say,"It's all because of farming!" My parents looked at me in a confused way. My mom said,"Explain" So I had to give them a whole World History lecture! At the end they both were staring at me like I was crazy. Then my mom said,"I actually get it". So I just thought that I should share this with you, to show how weird World History has made me. And it's just the first week...that's sad.
Geography effects history more than traditionally believed. It can effect everything from how people make a living to their very belief system. For example, Mesopotamian Gods were vengeful and cruel, which could have come from the harsh Tigris and Euphrates rivers and climate they lived in. This could have made the people living there think that they are being punished. But on the other hand, Egyptian Gods were peaceful and calm, much like the Nile River that was always so good to the Egyptians. It Provided easy transportation up and down the Nile, irrigation for crops from the seasonal flooding which also deposited silt for crops to be planted in, and protection from outside evasion from the cataracts south of Egypt.
I believe the location of the United States has protected us from attack from other world powers, but people get to comfortable with the thought of that and thats when we get vulnerable. Think Pearl Harbor, Think 9/11. if we continue to have the thought of "Island America" being protected just because of our location, then we are setting are selves up for more attacks. We should learn from past societies, instead of the nomads attacking "civilization" we have terrorist attacking the world powers.
miss patel, imagine how weird you'll be after an entire school year in this class!
mr. dixon, some would argue that the current war on terror is merely a continuation of the millenia-long struggle between the settled and the non-settled. good observation.
Geography practically created religion right? People started to worship gods because they were afraid of the land. Rivers flooded and scared everyone around them, so the people made a god of the river to protect themselves, even if that god didn't exist. People created the gods to help themselves survive. I guess thats sort of what Nidhi was saying, but I think people made religion to help themselves feel safer.
What about the Christian god? He depicted by Christians as a benevolent and kind god and yet Christians go around trying to coerce people to join their religion, saying it is "God's" will. Is this kind god actually trying to take over the world through disciples and does not care for people of other religions.
Environment is the constant in any society,but the way it is constant is the fact that it is unpredictable and always changing. People in early civilizations would have to plan their life around the nature that surrounded them simply because they had no other choice. They either plant their crops when it is suitable or their they will die. I take it that religion came about only because the mesopotamians were trying to change their environment through prayer. So if the rivers never flooded and everything was always perfect then i think we would have no religion in the modern day world.
i definately think that geography has a lot to do with people's religious beliefs. just like the sun gods, moon gods, storm gods, etc., there were so many things in nature, that people couldn't find explanations for.
how would people explain the floods, storms, hurricans, and all those natural disasters? sooner or later, i figured, someone would have to take the blame for it; so i guess they chose to think that there is someone superior than all humans, that is controlling everything. this is a very reasonable thought, but there are just so many different kinds of beliefs and religions, it seems impossible for every single person on this earth to stick to just one...
so i would say that the environment/geography has a lot to do with people's beliefs and interactions among eachother.
The environment doesnt control what people think or act. People chose to worship those gods, if i lived there, i wouldnt worship gods according to the environment. I would do whatever i wanted.
I say for cultures in Nile and Mesopotemia, I think trade was important factor. It is because these two cultures share many things in common. They have used irrigation, same tools, same animals such as cattle and goats. These animals were first existant in Mesopotemia while it was not in Nile! Therefore there must have been trade among locals, so i guess it was unified culture in these regions.
I do think that the Mesopotamians and Egyptians were similar by the environment they were living in. They could have also been similar by the trade because doesn't trade cause a trade in ideas as well as the goods. So besides the fact of each thinking that there were gods that controlled the land,water, sky, or whatever, there were also some other agreements that they would have never thought of until they heard it from each other.
Environment I think has a lot to do with religion and people's world views. This is because people need to know what is creating this and how do we get it to stop if it is hurting us? I think that people need an answer for everything, so i think that they needed a reason for the way the weather was like and why the world was the way it was. So thats how i think they are similar
i think the religeon has alot of things to do with enviorment, because people needs explanations to the beginning of the earth and how does everything in nature happens.If you believe in cetain kinds of religeons, for example, if the day was sunny, they would think that God is happy today, or if it was stormy they would think that God is mad and they would start praying. If there would be a bad weather or good weather, it effects their farmings and crops. i think people started believing these gods because they were scared that they were going to get hurt
the geography and environment does have a huge impact on many different belief systems. in mesopotamia believed everyone no matter how good or bad the person may be everyone will spend eternity in hell...hmm very pessimistic, but they had their reason. It was that they thought the gods were always angry due to all the storms and flooding of the rivers thats what they came to think. on the other hand egypt was thankful and believed they would spend eternity in a nice and peaceful place. the egyptians thought of all they geography as gifts from the gods. for example the nile was a very predictable river and it had a two way transportation method which was very convenient for trade. both these places saw religious beliefs very different but both saw it through the geography. the geography also leads to many different struggles including military forces, feeling of being secure and that nothing could go wrong, and social stratification!! those are just some of the many different things
I think that Geography and climate are still affecting us as we live today. We talk about war being the only pressure that causes humans to develop, but the environment plays a huge role in that as well. Whereas the environment may have been "perfect" in Egypt, in many places that is not so. Right now we're trying to develop alternate energy sources because our world is "low on oil". These environmental pressures are forcing us to change our ways of life. Rome, Italy is very hot. Houses built in ancient Rome are built with high ceilings and windows so that the hot air flows out. Our environment is still affecting us, and it always will.
Lora Persyn
I definately think that geography influences humans and their worldview, how they react to things, and religion. Since China was easy to invade, china made the necessary developments to defend themselves and took advantage of bronze and other inventions.Harappans were surrounded by mountains and because of that they never thought of being invaded. the result being totally knocked out of history, and they were smart. I think that geography will always influence us no matter how much we grow.
Geography still affects our development today but not as much as it use to. Today we have to tools to completely destroy most physical features. to get ride of a mountain people can blow it up the shreds. if we wanted to get rid of a pond they can just drain it. with our tools that we have made today almost anything is possible it seems like. there are consequences as always when it comes to nature. if we build on wetland, chances are the building or house or whatever will be flooded and possibly destroyed. wiping out tons of trees will cause erosion or flooding. so no matter what we do something worse will happen. But why do people do it? i think because for one they are dumb and second of all with our exploding population causes us to need more space as well as resources. so is it really a dumb idea? i think there can be something else that we can do to help the cause but it always seems to happen that when we try to help the situation it always gets worse. so maybe there isnt anything we can do. as things develop things get worse. But all that is mainly what the core has to deal with. The periphery on the other hand i think relies more on the geography. With the periphery's main job to be the farmers, there whole work is all about geography. They have to rely on the seasonal monsoons or flooding of the rivers making their lives difficult. But overall i have to say geography is a big factor in the world today even though there has been improvements to our lives. but we still have to think of the set backs
I had never thought about religion being influenced by Geography. I think Egypt and Mesopotamia were similar not all through trade, but more through them being both river valley societies in the same time. Although the Egyptians had it better off (Until they were attacked) because the Nile worked in their favor. Most Americans are Christians, and believe in a good God, probably due to prosperity. It would be interesting to see what people would believe in if that prosperity changed...?
alina venick
while the environment may affect how humans develop, like whether or not they have an army, how they view religion, or if they have art from surplas food production, it is really human nature that sets the stage.
societies from china to africa to mesoptamia to mezoamerica all develop in a simalar way, especially in that they all have slaves, while their geography is all extremely different. humans all have a certain way of thinking alike that causes them to make these decisions.
I think the environment is a very importnant and influencial factor in religion. Like we discussed in class today, the Tigris and Euphrates rivers would flood with no warning, causing the Mesopotamians to see their gods as angry ones and very dangerous. That's why they thought that there was no good afterlife awaiting so they did what they wanted to do, good or bad. The Egyptians thought that there was a good, harmonious afterlife, because the Nile River wouldn't flood like the Tigris and Euphrates would. That lead the Egyptians to think that their gods could be merciful and understanding. It all comes back to one thing...nature.
I definitely think that certain aspects of how a civilization forms does involve the geography of the area where it forms, but I think it is generalizing to say that it determines most aspects of a society, especially religion. For example, the hebrews were constantly fighting other groups of people, as well as being enslaved, but they still believed in a benevolent God. A similar occurenced happened later with the emergence of Christianity. Basically, I feel like there are some areas in which all humans share a similar thinking but I think that is mostly just common sense. I think we might be looking at the human race too collectively and are forgetting the difference one person can make, good or bad.
I think that religion and the environment play an important role. Religion plays a big factor in the instance of the rivers of Mesopotamia flooding so irregularly and the Nile River flooding on a regular basis. The Mesopotamians thought that the gods were mad at them where the Egyptians thought it was gifts. This goes to show that geography shapes religion. Because the people from Mesopotamia didn't think that they were going to go to Heaven, they had to have a system of laws to keep everyone in line but in other places in the world where the people were good so that they could get to Heaven they didn't need a system of laws. Also, civilizations that were more protected from geographical barriers were much more stable and calm but they didn't have the latest innovations whereas the places who were not protected and were constantly being under attack, were always inventing the newest and best way to defend themselves, creating new inventions. So this goes to show that geography does have an impact on belief systems and civilizations.
Becca, I agree with your thoughts. I don't think geography has as much as an impact as it used to, at least in America. But in other parts of the world (the periphery you mentioned) this may not be the case, but this does not change the fact that geography definitely was a major factor of shaping our society into our present form. I think we are beiginning to see geography as a historical actor. Matthew Voicu, while geography in no way controls how people think, the fact that geography influences people's thoughts can't be ignored. We discussed how geography dshaped religion, but not so much development. In the human web it talked about the different webs and how some were allowed more inrticate communication. This was talked about in China mostly. Because they had an intricate river system, they had a good foundation to create a market society. It went on to talk about that Mesoamerica didn't have a river system like this, so it did not have a good foundation to create a market society. And what about domesticated animals? In Eurasia there were cammals, horses, etc. In Mesoamerica there was llamas, and they were only in certain loacation (I believe it was in the Andes Mts.). So it can't be ignored that geography deffinitely shaped the development of society. My opinion on the subject is that it is human nature to want to improve technologies and create ideas. However I think geography molded the ways that humans in different regions thought about how to create, or why to innovate at all. Like Alina said, societies everywhere have lots of striking similarities ( I agree with Alina, that this is caused by human nature), but I think it is geography that helps dictate the small differences, i.e. how slaves are used and/or for what purpose. On a slightly different note, I was fascinated by tonights reading, mostly because I found out about the Confucius, Daosim, and Legalist view of human nature. Are humans ultimately good, they just need a guiding light (Confucius belief), or does government complicate everything (Daoism). Or are human selfish desires too strong to be swayed to the good, and threats and fear are needed to control their urge to better themselves rather than the state as a whole? (Legalist) Just fascinating to think about.
all good and interesting thoughts mr. livaditis. thanks for pointing out your thoughts for tonight's reading regarding chinese philosophies on human nature and how to improve societies. i can't wait to discuss these ideas with you all tomorrow.
Mesopotamians and egyptians are the same in which they both are built around agriculture, but their millitary and political systems are completely different. Egypt did not build up their millitary because they were surrounded by desert and they thought no one could get to them, but mesopotamia was being attacked day after day. Also mesopotamia worshiped harsh gods because they did not have the best agricultural land and they thought they were being punished by their gods. All this shows how geography plays a major role in culture and religion.
Geography sets the stage for development, even though most people wouldn't believe that. This plays a role in religious beliefs as well as people surviving in this chaotic world. Mesopotamia believed their gods to be evil. The Tigris and Euphrates Rivers were unpredictable, so when they would flood and ruin crops, people took this as a sign from God. The Nile River, on the other hand, was predictable by the people that lived along river. They would know when floods and other natural disasters were coming, but the Nile was important for transportation as well. People are most brilliant when they are under attack, because they have to think of constant reactions in case of attacks. If you are not under attack you are vulnerable and have an attitude that you are invinsible. While in fact being attacked is probably a better state if living. Take into mind Saptember 11th, 2001 when you think of this idea.
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