Well ladies and gentlemen, hopefully you have a better handle on classical Indian history and culture. Key to this understanding, of course, is a real understanding of Buddhist teachings. Buddhism, as we discussed today, did not originate in East Asia, but in India during the sixth century B.C.E. The Buddha (originally Siddartha Gautama, but later "the enlightened one") must have been a compelling teacher because he soon attracted devoted followers. A huge surge forward for Buddhism is when the Mauryan Indian Emperor Ashoka apparently converted to Buddhism and encouraged the spread of the faith throughout his empire. Like Christianity some 500 years later, Buddhism especially appealed to the lower classes. Largely this is because the Buddha himself rejected the idea of varnas, rituals, and the power of the brahmins. In so many ways, this belief system emerged in reaction to the traditional Indian belief system. I would like for you to read the words of Buddhism himself (translated into English of course) in order to get a greater understanding of his teachings. Would I would like you to read are his Four Noble Truths, the core of the Buddha's first sermon afer his enlightenment. Although Buddhism continued to evolve following the death of the founder, Buddhists nonetheless regard the Four Noble Truths as the touchstone of their faith. Please read his words carefully after clicking on the following link (The Four Noble Truths). The full text will come up for you, but YOU ONLY NEED TO READ PAGES 368-374 (don't worry, it's short). You can either read it right off the screen (just type in 368 in the page spot) or you can download the whole thing to your computer, whatever is more convenient for you (google books is an awesome application!). After reading that short passage, I'd like to get your reactions. First of all, according to the Four Noble Truths, what is the great problem that humans face? How do you feel about that? Is there a solution to this problem in the Four Noble Truths? If so, what is it? According to the Four Noble Truths, what does it mean to be a good person? What is the attitude toward human emotions in the Four Noble Truths? Is there a particular kind of social structure or set of gender relationships implied in the Four Noble Truths? Now let's also begin comparing this text to the important Hindu text, The Bhagavad Gita, that you already read in the post below (right?). How migh the ideas represented by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita have contributed to the waning of Buddhism in India? Let's make another comparison! How do the teachings in the Four Noble Truths compare with those of Confucius? What similarities and and what differences do you see? Do the four Noble Truths provide clues to the reasons why Buddhism spread so widely in East Asia but didn't really gel in India in the end? Your thoughts...
Monday, August 25, 2008
Buddhism and the Four Noble Truths
Well ladies and gentlemen, hopefully you have a better handle on classical Indian history and culture. Key to this understanding, of course, is a real understanding of Buddhist teachings. Buddhism, as we discussed today, did not originate in East Asia, but in India during the sixth century B.C.E. The Buddha (originally Siddartha Gautama, but later "the enlightened one") must have been a compelling teacher because he soon attracted devoted followers. A huge surge forward for Buddhism is when the Mauryan Indian Emperor Ashoka apparently converted to Buddhism and encouraged the spread of the faith throughout his empire. Like Christianity some 500 years later, Buddhism especially appealed to the lower classes. Largely this is because the Buddha himself rejected the idea of varnas, rituals, and the power of the brahmins. In so many ways, this belief system emerged in reaction to the traditional Indian belief system. I would like for you to read the words of Buddhism himself (translated into English of course) in order to get a greater understanding of his teachings. Would I would like you to read are his Four Noble Truths, the core of the Buddha's first sermon afer his enlightenment. Although Buddhism continued to evolve following the death of the founder, Buddhists nonetheless regard the Four Noble Truths as the touchstone of their faith. Please read his words carefully after clicking on the following link (The Four Noble Truths). The full text will come up for you, but YOU ONLY NEED TO READ PAGES 368-374 (don't worry, it's short). You can either read it right off the screen (just type in 368 in the page spot) or you can download the whole thing to your computer, whatever is more convenient for you (google books is an awesome application!). After reading that short passage, I'd like to get your reactions. First of all, according to the Four Noble Truths, what is the great problem that humans face? How do you feel about that? Is there a solution to this problem in the Four Noble Truths? If so, what is it? According to the Four Noble Truths, what does it mean to be a good person? What is the attitude toward human emotions in the Four Noble Truths? Is there a particular kind of social structure or set of gender relationships implied in the Four Noble Truths? Now let's also begin comparing this text to the important Hindu text, The Bhagavad Gita, that you already read in the post below (right?). How migh the ideas represented by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita have contributed to the waning of Buddhism in India? Let's make another comparison! How do the teachings in the Four Noble Truths compare with those of Confucius? What similarities and and what differences do you see? Do the four Noble Truths provide clues to the reasons why Buddhism spread so widely in East Asia but didn't really gel in India in the end? Your thoughts...
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i think it went really well in east asia because the four noble truths were pretty much common sense, like confunanism, which seemed to appeal to a lot of people in east asia. confucanism taught people to behave in a good manner, common sense, just like buddhism had people be good to eachother, common sense, instead of worshipping gods.
it was kinda hard for me to read and completely understand those few pages, bc of all the "o priests o priests" and whatnot.. but it seems that they are mainly focusing on misery, things that lead to misery, etc. and it seems like the ending sums up to.. if a person isolates him/herself from earthly sensations, earthly focuses, etc and finds peace/tranquility in himself, that's when they truly are happy and joyful.
yeah, the language is a bit elevated, but you're getting the idea. it's earthly possessions (especially the one's that we don't particularly need) that lead to suffering.
man... way too many "O priests". this passaged talked mainly about misery. it also talks about the origins of misery which is basically desire. then it talks about what causes desire( the six... sense ,etc.) Basically if we isolate ourselves from all these things, we can find true happiness.
ok, all true, everything you all are saying, but let's really focus on trying to wrap our minds around some of the discussion starter questions I threw out there. i would especially like to see your thoughts comparing this to the passage from the bhagavad gita that you hopefully also read.
I think that the Four Noble Truths were accepted and it went well because they had an easy concept and it made sense to the people. The Four Noble Truths were not anything new and wild for the people to grasp and it was basically common sense. I agree with Sally in that it was hard to understand those pages but the point that it was trying to get across was easy. I think what the Four Noble Truths says is correct because earthly possessions that we don't need, do not make us truly happy even though most of us think it will, but peace and calmness will make us truly happy.
I forgot to bring my book to school today to show you the barcode so here it is:
10000001712203
I guess what they are trying to say is that whatever that you have is not going to stay with you forever, after you die. So, why have anything. cause you're going to get a new beginning. Why worry about gettng something or building upon something if it won't come to any use and will just be a waste of time and thinking.
why do the priest know so much about misery and is it saying that the preist are the nobal truth like the priest are the prime example of misery.....? so would that be why the priest know so much about it!!?!?!?
i think that this worked very good because it was easy to understand and easy to do. it helped people be nicer to one another.
ok folks, let's try to beef up our comments here a bit
yeah that was very confusing to read.But i think that i meant that when you eliminate yourself from normal focuses and things in reality then you find peace in your own body and mind and eliminate disire then you will get rid of suffering.
The big problem that humans face according to the four noble truths is misery. It is said in the four noble truths that staying away from misery will lead to happiness and ultimately nirvana. In the Bhagavad-Gita a man is withdrawing from war after he realizes that his enemies are actually his kinsmen. Arjuna was faced with the decision to fight or not fight which led to misery. So by withdrawing from the war he can also withdraw from the misery allowing him to reach everlasting happiness.
Regarding the relationship of men and women, here is a quote that explains a lot. “And when immorality prevails, O Krishna, the women of the family become corrupted; when women are corrupted, social problems arise.” This is blaming all of the social problems on women.
The greatest problem that humans face is human desire and how it leads to misery. There are many examples in the budhist texts that illustrate this in detail. I believe that there is some truth to this, because people always want more. If there is something that appeals to our senses, we are always going to wish that we had it. The four noble truths say that we must relinquish humanly desires. However, we must be balanced. We don't want to be to extreme and meditative, but at the same time want to have self-control and restrain one's self. When I read the four noble truths, I didn't pick up much gender discrimination( maybe i just read it too quickly). It says that no matter what social class you are, you can reach nirvana if you follow the eight-fold path. Buddhism is similary to Confucianism in that they have a more secular approach to being satisfied or in peace. Both teachings say that you can take it upon yourself to better your own life, not relying on the gods. Buddhism is different because it doesn't focus on respect to family or other people. It focuses on restraining most emotions, because they lead to misery. I think Buddhism was successful in East Asia because of that secular mind set of the people in that area.
People in the world face arguments, disagreement or problems because it doesn't go their way. This leads to robberies, fights, then on a larger scales, wars and rebellions. I don't think we can just solve this problem just like that because giving everything everyone wants cannot be possible in just a year or even a couple of centuries. They say where misery and discomfort and sadness, let's say all the "bad" stuff. They tell us where it begins and how it grows worse. Though they give answers they are quite simple and I don't think these can solve all the problems we humans face today. It will take forever but for me I don't believe its possible for us to wipe the world's problems.
The Four Noble Truth tells us about the misery in the world and what brings the misery to this world. Examples are the attachment to material things, death, to be reborn etc. The only way out of "misery" seems to be to understand the misery you're in and know what it leads to and where it originally comes from. The Noble Truths say that we must let go of our desires if we want to be on the right path.
This is different from the Hindu way of thinking because the Buddhist believe in harming no thing unlike the Bhagavad Gita in which they believe in that if you do not fight or do what you have to do even if you are wrong, then you bring shame instead of going down the right path as the Buddhist say.
when you stop focusing on your desires you truly find actual peace. It makes sense and if theres balance not as many people will desire as much because it all equals out.
The greatest problem that humans face is misery caused by desire. Desire is caused by one's five senses and one's thinkings. The Buddists wanted to reach the point of Nirvana, where one does not born, age, or die; the end of misery. If one wants to reach Nirvana, he or she has to block pleasures and desires to reach the point of joy and bodily happiness.
Unlike the Hindus, one can be in any level of social system to reach Nirvana and be free. Unlike Confusionism, I think the Four Noble Truths are more intense because one needs to throw out all their thoughts that are irrelevant to peace or Nirvana and focus on oneself to create peace and harmony; where Confucious wanted one to respect and obey each other to create peace. I think Buddhism ended up more in East Asia than India at the end because East Asia(especially China) agreed more upon equalness; also, I think since East Asia went through so many wars and rebellions, more people wanted peace with no worries so they can end their sufferings.
The main reason for suffering, as stated by the first noble truth, is desire. although you can see how that could have been interpreted, i believe that some desire sparks initiative and incentive to keep a working attitude. Its like if you desire a better job, you work for it. If all of your hard work pays off, and you get a promotion, does that mean that you are in store for some great suffering? This philosophy makes a lot of sense if you think about all of the horrible unnecessary desires, but what about the beneficial desires? Why should a person suffer for their hard work? And the whole asceticism thing can become more than just leaving behind earthly possessions. Many followers abandoned their families to reach enlightenment. Another thing that was brought to my attention, was again, the separation between the social views on women and men. Like Ben Doty earlier stated, one of the writings seemed to make a point that women were4 the cause of many problem. I mean, its not like im some kind of equal rights extremist, but im starting to see a repetition of views throughout time and cultures.
The four noble truth say that the main reason for pain and suffering is the desire for what you want. That is true. If you thought what would the world be like if there wasnt that desire to always have something that you cant have. The world would change alot. But is the desire for things always bad. No if we didnt have that desire we wouldnt probably be where we are now. Its the desire in people that help us solve problems that we have. So the Four Noble Truths ws good for early east asia but it wasnt perfect.
Arjuna is unsure about fighting because he sees his family members on the other side of the battle field, and he does not want to kill them. Krishna tells him that they will not die because souls never die they are reincarnated into another body. But it is Arjuna's duty to kill since he is a kshatriya and that if he doesnt kill he will be dishonored.this renforces the caste system bey like saying he has to do his duty as a kshatriya that if he doesnt he will be lowered into a different caste instead of being put into a higher caste.
The Four Noble Truths tell us about why and how the Earth brings and helps to create misery. The main reason is desire because if you desire it creates suffering. The Bhagavad Gita promotes dharma, artha, kama, and moksha. Dharma means you have to "do your duty" or for example if you are a warrior you have to fight. If you don't do this you will not go down the right path of enlightenment. This also supports the fact of only your body dies not your soul, it stays alive. Buddhism believes you can have nirvana no matter who you are, even if you are an untouchable.
even though they say desires cause misery, without desire, we would have no innovation.
After reading this, I now can really see why this appealed to lower caste members and also why Hinduism evolved. First, Buddhism is really easy to understand and basically common sense. Perfect for people with no education. It also goes on and on about misery, in which the lower caste members definitely had. Therefore, the peasants in India felt like Buddha felt for them as opposed to the rich, snobby priests that look down onto the peasants and condemn them. For me I think it's really funny how the priests come up with another religion after this (hinduism). It reminds me of today's world as if it was like some new and better product.
i dont think that him thinking everything is solved by not desiring things is going to solve everything. because you dont desire death but it still comes and if that is one of the miseries that we have then how are we supposed to stop it by just simply not desiring something. so i really dont see a point in not desiring things. besides people were born to desire certain things. for instance nobody wants to have kids if it isnt pleasurable at least a little. nobody wants to have to go through that but if you are "supposed to" i dont see a point in making it undesirable! it is good i guess though that all social classes can follow it because it makes the lower classes actually able to work for something in life rather than feeling so much like a nobody.
The great problem that humans face is misery, which will eventually lead to desire. I do agree with this, but I dont see how anybody could solve this problem, because no matter what misery and desire is going to take place in this world!...but according to the four noble truths, the solution to this is to get rid of your misery and desire. It explains that you dont have to give up EVERYTHING, but basically just the worldly desires. A good person, according to the four noble truths, follows the eightfold path. I also do not see how anybody could possibly follow these rules, especially in these days when want and desire is everything. Buddhism and Hinduism are similar in the fact that there is not a specific "god" that you have to worship or bow down to(if you get the point!)...and about the gender thing...ummm i dont remember reading anything about it!
The Four Noble Truths basically tells us that desire is the cuase of suffering and if people dont desire anyhting and live a nice calm peacful life, they wont suffer. And eventually they will reach nirvana.However, this philosophy has its pros and cons.First, Buddhism in general is just really easy to understand and basically common sense. Perfect for people with no education;because it was easy to undertstand the teachings attracted many people, especailly the lower castes. Also, Buddhism stated that anyone can reach nirvana. The passage also goes on and on about misery of mostly peasants. It is beacuase of all these cons about teh teachings, that Buddhism became popular to some extent in East Asia.
to get rid of our suffering we need to get rid of our desiers. that is one of the four noble truths. hmmmm... that is pretty straight forward and i can understand why it work in India.
i think that haveing the four noble truths keeps people in simple grounds and allows them to not get carried away with things.
The four noble truths, ithink will help in india. That is only because they are a highly religious society, and belive in these things. I wouldnt ever try to put buddhism to the test in any other society.
wow, that's alot of "O priest" "O priest". I do think that the four noble truths make sense and goes well with the religion. But i think that it would be hard to not desire anything. because everyone (except for buddah) would have to desire at least one thing..
The passage for me was really difficult to read.I had a hard time understanding. Why does it keep asking priest what is misery and birth.Is it because the buddha was trying to tell people that it does not matter what class you are in because everyone can reach nirvana.
i do think that desire is the main reason for suffering. if you didnt have desires though, what would you have? i mean yeah you wouldnt have as many problems,but desire is what makes us more advanced. if we didnt desire things like the latest and most equiped technology, there wouldnt be a reason to better things.
mr. voicu, incidentally, in the end buddhism won't be very successful at all in india. in fact in 2008, only less than 1% of indians are buddhist. however, it will be quite successful in china, a largely secular society. why perhaps might that be the case?
I think the Four Noble Truths is that desire to be pleasant in any of the six organs of senses(eyes, nose, ears, tongue, body, and mind). I agree with it because when people think something is delightful, they keep wanting it more, and when they can't get it, it causes misery. I think it is more related to Daoism than Confucianism because Buddhism taught people to step back from earthly possesions, like Daoism taught people to retreat from politics and government. I think the reason why it spread so widely in east Asia is because the idea of nirvana seemed appealing to China. The three philosophies in China(Confucianism, Daosim, Legalism) did not really talk about what happens after death and focused on how to live when you are alive, so it might have attracted people who are concerned about death. However, in India, Buddhism became less popular because of the reform of Hinduism, which weakened the power of Bhramines and allowed to have pleasures.
The four noble truths were really close to confucianism beacause they were both easy to understand and follow. they both also gave anyone the chance to reach varna. Buddhism did spread very fast and their numbers went up very quickly, but did stick to india very long. once buddhism became popular the aryan belief sytem made alterations to their bilief system inorder to get their numbers back up, which resulted in present day hiduism which is still to a huge religion in india compared to buddhism which is less than 1% of thye population. aryans made an alteration and made their belief system easier to understand and alot more enjoyable but still within the caste systems
Buddha makes it sound as if EVERYTHING is misery and he's telling us to let go of our desires. If we do this, then can us humans ever be happy???
Kevin Shin
i really love religions like this. i know that no religion is pure but it seems like the less of a big powerful god there is then then more pure the religion is. just like my favorite quote says:
"is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
then he is not omnipotent.
is he able but not willing?
then he is malevolent.
is he both able, and willing?
then whence cometh evil?
is he neither able nor willing?
then why call him God."-epicurus
The Four Noble Truths were very successful in India because it allowed the lower castes to have hope in reaching enlightenment unlike Hinduism. This is unlike Confucianism, Daosim, and Legalism as well because all three of the philosophies tell people what they "should" do. Buddhism is different in that it gives the lower castes a motive and reason in the Four Noble Truths to act in the manner that the Buddhist leaders tell them to by
When it says O priests, is it mocking priests?
The Bhagavad Gita and the Four Noble Truths are really different in ways of promoting their religions. The Bhagavad Gita uses dharma and karma as an incentive to doing your duty of your varna. When they do their duty they have a chance of obtaining moksha. Buddhism takes a different approach. It disregards varnas completely. The catch is that you have to deprive yourself of desire, which takes a lot of will power... The approach in Bhagavad Gita seems easier to me; just do your duty. In the four noble truths I saw no specific gender roles.
Both Buddhism and Confucianism teach of moderation, why waste the pain and energy striving for material goods that you really don't need. Go give up all your worldly possessions and go live in the woods in a life of meagerness. If anyone has seen or read Fight Club, it is very much like that. That movie is a mixture of Buddhism, Confucianism, and a want to return everyone back to the pre-neolithic society that was so less stressful, and less troubled with crap that doesn't even matter in the long run.
If you don't want anything, then how can you become disappointed?
The answer is you cannot. So the Four Nobel Truths explained by Siddartha Gautama was essentially a self help book for happiness. It said that the reason for suffering was desire. But most humans are way to shallow to give up their I pods, Cellphones, and other crap that just more difficult.
All this article talked about was how everything was about misery. Everything that was worldy would cause misery. It is believed in the article that nothing you have in life is important because you lose it all after you die. The only time that we will ever be happy according to this article is when we stop from doing anything worldy.
the four common truths were appealing to people because its goal, nirvana, is obtainable by any class in china unlike hinduisim were you had to be a priest or a onk to achieve it
I agree with what ben doty said about women being blamed for problems. I wasn't originally going to write about that but i read his comment and had to agree.
But back to the Four noble truths...
what I got out of it was that basically any type of want whatsoever was putting yourself into misery.
it said the origin of misery was things appealing to the ears eyes nose mind etc. does that mean you can't want anything? like a family that gets along better? or what if you wanted good health for a family member yet it did not come; does that mean you are in misery?
I think that this is a problem that humans face with the four noble truths. I don't think any sane human can give up everything. Like Chandragupta Maurya, they would have to live a life of complete aceticism. They would die of starvation because they could not want food. how could you set yourself up for death like that?
According to Confucius I think the biggest problem humans face is desire. If humans always want something they will never be stable and they will try anything to get what they want. If people follow the noble truths they will get rid of desire. Therefore, they will pay more attention to their duty and achieve Nirvana.
The Four Noble Truths basically state that to get rid of suffering, humans have to give up all desires. If one doesn't constantly want something that they can't have, they won't suffer due to the fact that they can't attain it. This, however, doesn't really make much sense to me. How would you manage to give up all desires all together? There's not really any possible way to give up every last desire. If you give up everything, you have that want of getting it back or suffering because you don't have something that you actually need.
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