Ok, ladies and gentleman, as our first major task of the year, your comparison essay between Classical China and India, draws ever closer (remember: Friday) let's continue drawing those comparisons between the two societies. If you have noticed, I have given you plenty of ammo both in class and on this blog to help you out with these comparisons. In fact folks, primary document sources are your best ammo when it comes to historical writing (what do you think Dr. Bentley largely relied on to write his textbook?). Notice that in my last several posts, not only have I provided you with primary document information, but after reading each document I'm trying to get you to compare what you read from India to what you have already read in China. Citing such comparisons in your upcoming essay would make for a powerful piece of writing! Remember, we're not just learning history here, we're learning how to be historians. Alright then, here is one last comparison that I'm going to throw out there for you all through looking at primary documents (and it's a fun one!)-- women's status in society. I would like you to look at 3 different documents suggest that the principle of female subordination had truly become a central element in South Asian life during the Classical Period.
First, I would like you to examine a few songs from the Therigatha, a collection of more than 500 songs originally composed by Buddhist nuns who were contemporaries of the Buddha. Scholars think that the songs in the Therigatha were first put into writing in the first century B.C.E. Please click on the following link (the Therigatha) to look at some excerpts from this text (you only have to read pgs. 68-70. it's very short!).
Second, I would like for you to consider some of the Laws of Manu, an influential philosophical-legal treatise dating from the beginning of the Common Era. The anonymous authors of the Laws of Manu were brahmins whose purpose in writing the book was, in part, to outline prescribed modes of behavior. Please read some excerpts by clicking on the following link (Laws of Manu) that focus on gender relations.
Finally, I would like you to take a second look at the Mahabharata, the classic Indian epic (you already saw a portion of it when you looked at the Bhagavad Gita), which was transformed from oral tradition into writing during the late first millennium B.C.E. (so likely some time before the first two passages that you read). The portion I would like you to read is called "Savatri and the God of Death," one of the most popular episodes in the Mahabharata. Please click on the following link (Savatri and the God of Death) to read it. You only have to read pages 28-33 (again it's short, one page is just a picture).
First, I would like you to examine a few songs from the Therigatha, a collection of more than 500 songs originally composed by Buddhist nuns who were contemporaries of the Buddha. Scholars think that the songs in the Therigatha were first put into writing in the first century B.C.E. Please click on the following link (the Therigatha) to look at some excerpts from this text (you only have to read pgs. 68-70. it's very short!).
Second, I would like for you to consider some of the Laws of Manu, an influential philosophical-legal treatise dating from the beginning of the Common Era. The anonymous authors of the Laws of Manu were brahmins whose purpose in writing the book was, in part, to outline prescribed modes of behavior. Please read some excerpts by clicking on the following link (Laws of Manu) that focus on gender relations.
Finally, I would like you to take a second look at the Mahabharata, the classic Indian epic (you already saw a portion of it when you looked at the Bhagavad Gita), which was transformed from oral tradition into writing during the late first millennium B.C.E. (so likely some time before the first two passages that you read). The portion I would like you to read is called "Savatri and the God of Death," one of the most popular episodes in the Mahabharata. Please click on the following link (Savatri and the God of Death) to read it. You only have to read pages 28-33 (again it's short, one page is just a picture).
Cool, so after you have read these, I would like you to consider the following: What were some of the main themes in the songs by the Buddhist nuns? How do the songs illustrate points in the Four Noble Truths? What clues to the character of gender relations do you see in the songs? How do the Laws of Manu define womanhood and manhood? What is your reaction to the laws you read? Do you think that the fact the laws were outlined by bhramins has any effect on the content of the laws? How do men and women relate to one another in the story of Savatri? How does Savatri relate to Yama, the "lord of death?" Are Savatri's actions consistent with the Laws of Manu? Based on your reading of the documents in this chapter, what generalizations, however tentative, seem reasonable regarding gender relations in India during the Classical period? Compare the Laws of Manu with Hammurabi's Code (you have to reach back a couple of weeks for this). What similarities and differences do you detect? After reading these documents and after having read Pan Chao's Lessons for Women what comparisons and contrasts can we draw between women's status in China and women's status in India??? Your thoughts...
50 comments:
India is another of many male dominanted societies. Why do women have to please a man or their husband? Why isn't it the other way around? Women basically have to treat their husbands like Gods. Even if a girl is young, lets say around 8 years old, she still would be married off by her father. If women made any money it would immediately go to the man in charge. They were not allowed to keep it, also women were basically as low as slaves because they couldn't own land. The women did all the chores and house work. That was their duty in life. I think the treatment of women was very poor, because i personally believe women and men are equal. Even today their are male dominated societies and women are not as respected as men. My look on this is that women can do anything men can do. The way women were treated infuriates me. It was not right in my mind.
I think that all of this is terrible. It is soooo ignorant to assume males are more important in society than women. I do not think that there should be rules outlining a wifes devotion to her husband like in the Maru code. The last story wasnt as bad as the other two links because that just shows devotion. In the begining of the story she got to chose who she wanted to marry and that makes all the difference because if it was an arranged marriage she would not have WANTED to serve him. She loved him and tricked death. And in no way should a 24 year old EVER be allowed to marry an 8 year old. EVER!!!!
In Savatri, in the paragraph before the actual story, it is said that men view women as deceitful and cunning. It is very similar to the depiction of Eve in the Bible. Also in the story, Savatri gets a choice in her husband and her father gets conformation from the "gods". That is not a typical practice in India. Child marriages are disgusting and it is pathetic that men will lower themselves as to marry a twelve year old girl just to have control and subordination over her. Also, in the Laws of Manu, it references that a woman is equal to that of a slave and must worship her husband as a god. India in my opinion is so much worse than China as the government at least did not write laws stating that a woman was absolutely nothing without her husband. I think the brahmins wrote this for mainly the upper classes as the women are seen and are more in a potentially more influential position if they ever got the chance to be in an area of some power.
India is definitely patriarchal just like China. The women have to be completely devoted to their husbands and must serve them for their entire life. I think that it’s crazy that they cannot re-marry if their husbands die. I also think that it’s ridiculous that girls can be married when they are eight years old. That's in second or third grade to us. I couldn't picture being a parent now, much less even younger than that. How would you know what to do? It’s a control issue and the only reason men marry that young is that they know they can control your wife. But it’s not really a wife if that age difference is that much. To me, it almost sounds as if the treat women as slaves. They must do all the house work and do whatever their husbands tell them to. I know that time has greatly changed, but I also know that I would never have been able to do that. I couldn't be part of a "relationship" that is based on control and fear and not love.
In the Therigatha, its seemed that every phrase was that they wanted to be free. Although it did say they wanted to be free from there unscrupulous husbands... The laws of Manu were really harsh, I mean the very first one was telling women not to do anything unless their husband said they could. It also says that women own no property. The only reason any women would stay faithful to these laws is because the punishments are so severe. Its really weird that the man can basically do whatever and get away with it. Women definitely have a better life in todays society
I had trouble understanding the songs but with the other stuff I agree with Alex: the laws are putting women as low as slaves, as possesions of their husbands!What I want to know is how this started. I'm asuming that all the Brahmins are men so they decided to put themselves on top. But it is not like in China where women were instantly consisdered less intelligent, as shown in Savatari and the God of Death. I think it was the paractice of child marriage that kept this going for so long.
The main theme in the Therigatha is that the women were “free”. They were free from all of the chores and strong rule of the husband. The women were saying that they were no longer starving and they didn’t have to do all of those chores. This meant that they could stay away from suffering (The Four Noble Truths).
The laws of manu go along with the statements in the Therigatha. They are arguing that they shouldn’t have to worship the men as if they were a god.
The story of Savatri on the other hand is different. The women (Savatri) is given the choice of whom she would like to marry. Her husband treats her with respect and their relationship is strong because of it.
Ok, so first of all, I love the last link about Savatri and the God of Death. I thought it was so romantic and cute because it shows real love.
Next are the songs about the women that were happy that they were finally free. The themes were practically about going though all the hard times and being week and tired, but then free at last.
When I was reading the excerpts from the Laws of Manu, I thought it was nasty how a 30 year old guy was to marry a young 12 years old girl or a 24 year old guy would marry an 8 year old girl. EW! Talk about child molestation now a days. Then there is the no remarriage law. So once your husband dies, you are pretty much alone for the rest of your life. That absolutely SUCKS and is unfair in my opinion.
Last is the story of Savatri and her husband Satyavan. I was surprised how she actually took care of her husband with him making her. So she was like every other woman at that time. I thought she was lucky because she got to pick her own husband and did not take part of an arranged marriage. She got the choice that no other woman had.
In the nuns songs they tell of the relief of being free from the back breaking work and little food that thay had endured, but it also shows another thing, that women could escape this cycle by becoming one of these nuns, unlike in China where devotion was forever. The excerpts from the the Law of Manu illustrate how little women's rights mattered in classical India and how no matter how a husband acted he still should be worshipped by his wife. The Last story was more a tale of how devoted a women should be to her husband, but she was devote to her husband because she got to choose him and actually loved him, but most marriages were to people not of the daughters choice so this story would not have held great importance to many Indian women.
wow. These documents are getting crazy, and really hipocritical. First, the nuns talk about freedom like its an amazing, un-reachable goal. I think that is really sad,and that really shows how trapped Indian woman are in serving their husbands. What is really crazy are those laws! Saying that women should worship their husbands as gods is insane, and how nasty is it that thirty year old guys get to marry eight year olds if they please them!Its interesting, because the other document is about the God of death. It portrays women as extremely intellegent, and that they can even out wit the god of death. That is very hipocritcal because those laws had just explained how dumb and unhelpful women were, and then the story goes off saying how women can help their husbands. I guess that shows that women are treated differently in different regions, but im not sure.That is my guess!
i noticed that in the songs, they were kind of saying "yay i aint got a man anymore!!" and i think thats horrible! it's like your life was so bad WITH a husband you're soooo thrilled that he's not there anymore?? no one should have to endure that! women just had no rights at all! like alex says, they are basically as low as slaves, i completely agree with that! why would you marry off your daughter when she was eight?? or twelve?? i wasn't even allowed to have a boy as a friend when i was 8 (not really, but if i did have one i was interrogated). they had no time to grow up or actually be a child! but i do contradict the statement that men are equal to women. today we are still to some degree below them, we just don't realize it! you know everyone say girls can't play football, or carry heavy things, they cant drive and all sorts of things like that. in my opinion i think we've always been better than them....for lack of a better word. we are always expected to cook and clean AND THENNNNN men expect women to still cater to their every need at night and THENNNNNN they expect them to give birth! so no, i don't beleive we are equal. but the last document about the....Savatri girl...or whatever her name was... i thought that one was good and bad, because her father was going to force her to marry anyways, but he let her find someone she loved. even though he didnt approve she still married him, knowing he wasn't going to live very long, and she was so happy wiht him she did everything in her power to bring him back.
I think it is horrible that there are so many male dominated societies in the world, including India. the treatment of women in India was so extremely poor. They would have to do all of the housework and chores and didn't even have a chance of proving that they could do something else well because they didn't have a chance. Also, I think that it is absolutely horrible and wrong that there were child marriages. No child should be married at that young of an age and then to top it off, they were forced to work and practically whorship their husband. Granted, there are jobs in which women do better than men or men do better than women, but women and men are equal. It makes me sad to think that today there is still some male dominated places.
The laws of this ignorant manu guy, are, and always have been stupid and chauvinistic.To think that a woman is less than a man on any level is ludicrous. In my very very strong opinion, thanks to women those manu zombie husbands came home to a clean house, a hot meal, and an obedient .. >:( ..wife.When one of Manu's "laws", number 147 i think, says that even as a young girl, no woman could do anything by themselves, not even in their own house!! Does this mean they cant even do their"womanly duties" like cook and clean without supervision?!?! WERE WOMEN REALLY THIS STUPID?!? I THINK NOT!!
ridiculous
I think Manu was just jealous that somebody else got his woman.....
and as a result, Manus Laws
childish
Some of the reason i think males are dominant over women is because miss interpretations of some of the holy texts, and other texts. Women's lives are so much more complicated than a mans life will ever be but yet they still get treated like crap in many countries. Women in India are still treated bad to this day. They have to worry about getting killed by the in-laws in a thing called dowry deaths. They have to worry about getting burned alive if their in-laws(mainly the mother-in-law)dont get their dowry that they wanted(also a misinterpreted part of text. the daughter use to get the dowry for herself not for her in-laws)
and men are not gods so they should not be worshiped. i think that is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard, but yet since the guys are in charge and have those big powerful positions they get to make whatever law they want benefiting themselves and the other men in their society. that is an extremely selfish thing to do.
In India the women cannot own land or anything at all. In China however, they can own property under certain conditions. The women in China had a little more freedom than the women in India. The Chinese women got to move independently around the house and market, etc. but the Indian women had to be accompanied even around the house. In Some of the Chinese religions, men had to treat their wives with at least a little respect unlike India who treated their wives like property and pests.
And how sick is it that 8 year olds would marry 24 year olds. that is just sickening to think about. It is insane how humans could be so equal once but then seep sooo low to a state where women have to worship their husbands. How Bizarre!
The women desired freedom and happiness... they may want things, and that may lead to suffering, but if and when you attain what you desire it will be the most amazing euphoria, even if only for a little while.
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WHY would a woman WORSHIP her husbad??! I mean, comeon!? Of all the things to do an a patriarchial society? You would expect it at some point...but that they actuically did it? And 8 years old!!! nooo! Why?? Well, we know why: power. But 8? Even 12 is bad. But 8? I thought they were at the least supposed to have hit puberty? How are they expected to be a wife...and all the things wives do, at 8?
I liked the Savatri and the God of Death story. It was much like a fairy tale. I like those. I'm glad they had a moreso even relationship, though of course he was still the dominant. :P She was intellegent and her father wanted her, and let her choose her husband(and let him be a peasent). He sounds like a great man. She followed him to death and in the way this story went, if they had been in love, why not? Hey, if I was in love and he died, and he was my life, and if I could just follow death to be with him I would. The story also encouraged wisdom and courage in women. GOOD. I think this was a good story to have. It is still to the patriarchial beliefs, but it would have to be to make any impact on their sociey.
wow! yeah, i sort of knew these documents would get some reactions. a couple of thoughts on my part that i'd like to throw out there...
1) i agree with miss farrell that the description of women in the laws of manu as being cunning, deceitful, etc is quite reminiscent of the description of eve, the first woman according to judeo-christian tradition. interesting... i thought the exact same thing the first time i read it... so this seems to be a global idea during the period.
2) some of you all noted that you noticed a difference between the way woman is described in the story of savatri... she is intelligent and she can even outwit the supernatural. now miss edwards, you say you see a double standard in this description and then in the laws of manu. think about this though, notice in my post i purposely told you the time period that each passage was written. be on the lookout for CHANGE OVER TIME anytime i do that. ok, so looking at the dates again then, how is the status of women in india changing OVER TIME??? certainly there is a shift taking place... hmm...interesting
3)miss jackson, in hindu belief, manu is the progenitor of mankind, the first king to rule this earth, who saves mankind from the universal flood. He is honest which is why he is called "Satyavrata", or oath of truth. so let's be careful who we're calling ignorant. manu didn't write this. if you want to target your anger towards anyone, target it at the authors, not manu. manu is innocent on this one.
4) while i'm thinking about change over time, i want to make a point that we don't want to over-generalize here. we are looking at women's status in india during the classical period not in 2008. women's rights were horrendous in most places globably during this period, not just india and china. that just happens to be what we're studying at the moment. trust me, you won't be any more impressed by women's status in greece (heck, it was the greeks that invented veiling!). i must say that in south asia recently we have seen powerful leaders emerge in politics, especially in the last 50or so years. women like Indira Gandhi in India and the late Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan immediately come to mind.
The interesting thing is that man have been dominant over females as long as humans were in existance.adam was made first, and women were made from adam. Also Eve was the one who ate the forbidden fruit casting a painful labor an many other consequences upon women. An d the main thing that contributes to the womens sertitude is the fact that she has children and thus is the one to stay home and take care of them.So the men are really the ones to rule over us, to some extent and not absuing their wives.
I think that India is strongly patriarchal and male-dominated. I didn't really understand the Therigatha, but I think it was about women being free and equal in terms of eliminating desires and reaching nirvana.
The Law of Manu states that women have no right to do anything on their own and have to serve their husbands like Gods. It is similar to the Hammurabi's Code in the way that women were treated harshly; One of the laws from the Hammurabi's Code was that if a woman was not careful, she would be thrown into the water.
The story of Savatri was less patriarchal than the Law of Manu beacause it describes Savatri, a woman, as a brave and intelligent character who saves her husband and brings honor to her family. I think the gender discrimination has gotten better through the creation of Buddhism, which taught to respect all lives and that all people can reach nirvana, a state of freedom beyond the concept of gender.
Lets try and put the male-bashing rhetoric aside for a moment and try and look at more than how evil men are. Going against Delaney and Ms. Bullocks statements,maybe Indian and Chinese men were not trying to belittle women. Maybe they were trying to create a system that genders could get along. As much as we would like to not believe it, in the imperfect world that we live in there usually has to be someone in control, and because men were the lawmakers of coarse they put themselves on top. If women were lawmakers they would have made the same choice I believe. But like my other post, is having a niche a bad thing? Yeah, some people are not going to be exactly content, but to make an omelet you have to break some eggs {or egg producers.lol} Also I have a hard time believing that every man in Indian and Chinese society was a "chauvinistic pig" . Did they know what they were doing could be portrayed as evil to women by others, I believe not. humans follow the basic mold of society they are brought up in. In some societies in Africa it is customary to eat human, that is taboo to us but to them its normal.I completely sympathize with women in this situation who wanted to be writers, artist,inventors,politicians, and philosophers and I believe Indian and Chinese society missed out on some great ideas because of it. But, that was the price they payed for social structure stability.
Ok. So this is pretty bad. In Savatri and the God of Death, the reason she was so devoted to her husband was because she chose him. She was not forced into that marriage so she really cared for him. (like in countries with violence, they rebel, countries who are not forced do not rebel.) If women were treated equally and not equal to slaves like it says in the Laws of Manu, maybe all wifes would be more happy and willing to treat their husbands better, maybe not like gods (because thats absolutely crazy!) but if all husbands are gods, what makes them think women should not be treated like goddesses?
Sapp.
The law of manu makes it seem like women can't do anything right and men can't do anything wrong. This Indian society seems to value women only if they're loyal and obedient to their masters, either their father or husband. Hmmm... What does that remind you of? Maybe a dog! I don't see how the men back then could treat women this way but I guess part of it is because that's how they were raised. It seems like someone eventually would have said "Hey women are people just like men. Shouldn't they be treated equally?" It's definitely not right by today's standards but that's just how society functioned in those times.
The fact that one of the documents was written by brahmins means that not only were they all men, but they were men who considered themselves the top of the social ladder. Also the Indians valued devotion and perserverence in their wives. I actually really enjoyed the last story, but it seemed to me more like a children's story, like Cinderella in our society.
In my opinion, Chinese women had a little more rights. At least what we read about them was a "guide" not a strict law code. ALso, Chinese women didn't have to treat their husbands as gods. And, correct me if I'm wrong, we haven't heard anything in the chinese culture about child marriage at 8 years old!
Also, as Trevor said, it wasn't necessarily the men of the times faults. It was the way they were raised, the way they had seen their own mothers treated, and how it'd been since the invention of agriculture.
Are man perfect? no they are not.
However in ancient and still today men are stronger than women in terms of voice in the public. In Manu, women are supposed to worship their spouse like god. A god? Not right. Each gender has its own flaws. I believe Indian woment had virtually had no power at all seeing these laws. Chinese women suffered too, but not as bad as Indians. I guess you really can't really destroy gender barriers which was set upon thousands of years ago.
Although I couldn't read the whole story of Savatri, cause it wouldn't let me, i completely agree with Jordan. Im thinking that in India the women started to be treated better because of modernization> people saw how other parts of the world are getting ahead, because they actually had a women workforce. This allowed fr more freedom for women. Savitri was lucky during that time to have a father who would let her choose her husband, and get ahead unlike other Indian women at that time. Savitri was valued because her dad just wanted a child, it didnt matter to him if it was a boy or girl. In this story savitri is walking along with the men, not behind which is way against the Manu thing.
Women aren't supposed to treat their husbands like gods unless if they treat wives as goddesses! It's true that even today this is happening in India. People need to get out of the mindset that women are useless. There are women who are supporting the men in that women are to be useless. What is wrong with these women. Maybe its that they have gone through all of this and now want to make it equal with other women? Comeon! If u didnt have the opportunity why not give it to other women. If u look at the men they just wanna do something for all men, and aren't being jealous like women with each other. That's one reason why there are still places like this. In those places women are the ones against women! They are supposed to bond not go against each other! This is way off topic..but everyone has said what practically id wanted to say..so this is all that I got to say..
In the Laws of Manu, the women are simply degrated. They are put on the same level as slaves and are said to own nothing. Their husbands own it all and they have to work to please their husbands and that is their job. They are like property to their husbands not a wife. It is like calling your wife a pet hamster. India has a STRONG patriarchal society while China also did, but it wasnt quiet as strong and women did have some sort of rights. The songs were talking about the women finally being freed from the labor and work. Which seemed to be looked forward to.
In the classical India era, it is quite interesting to see how much power a man has over a woman. I think that it kept a lot of order in society because the truth is that if divorce was going on and a whole bunch of adultery as well, the whole system (government) would would have broke. I'm not saying that it was entirely fair that women were treated basically as slaves but I think it was a necessary step in that particular time period.
I'm not sure what the song was about, but I think it seems like the woman is dying with her husband. This is because she is basically free of all worldly things, such as chores and is going to moshka or Nirvana. But it could also mean that the woman is free from her husband because he died and doesn't have to worry about pleasing him.
Unlike Hammurabi's code though it was not an eye for an eye. It was basically, in classical India, if the woman does something wrong, she brings disgrace. If the man does something wrong who cares? what's gonna happen to him? Nothing. I think this treatment though was okay for that time period but i also it was sexist and too inappropriate.
I see Mr. Prill's point of change over time in the Classical Period. I agree with what most people said about these documents.
Trevor makes a good argument, but you can't deny the unjust treatment women got in this time period.
I have a question about the Law of Manu:
(When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct.
What is a love of their bed?
Does it mean that they should serve their husbands sexually or something completely different?
What about a love of their seat?
They do what they are told?
and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct.
Is this saying that women were created impure?
I'm not sure what this quote means.
Like basically everyone else I think that societies that are male ruled are outrageous and need to change. I understand that it's embedded into their culture, but really in the modern day you would think that they would look around and see the wrongness in it. I would especially think that the women in these societies would. The husbands in India were considered gods to the wives and they had to obey everything they said. This is just as bad as the women in China. I think that eventually things will change in these societies and the women will prove to be equal to men and not less then them.
First of all, i liked the Savatri and the God of Death. It talked about woman as a smart, romantic, and brave human being. I think the Laws of Manu is tantamount to the Lessons for Women by Pan Chao or maybe even worse because Laws of Manu basically pictured women as "NOTHINGS." Law 147 "By a girl, by a young woman, or even by an aged one, nothing must be done independently, even in her own house." What is this; it's not even slavery! I don't even know how to describe it! It is basically saying women could not eat, sleep, or go to the bathroom without permission! I guess it wasn't as bad as asking to go to the bathroom; but it sure sounds like it! Obviously, man were seriously dominating over women because women had to worship man! Male human is not a divine force! That, i think, is crazy. And The Therigatha I did not really understand everything, but i think it is mentioning about woman's feeling of their husband's death. They sound pretty happy to me. If i were them, i would be too. This passage is infering that women were not stupid. They knew they were being mistreated and they were mad about it.
I didn't know what these laws were made by Brahmins, but if it was, the Brahmins were seriously solipsistic, and they wanted to be worshiped as a god by 14 year olds. If i were to choose between women's role in Classical India or Classical China, (i wouldn't choose any but,) I think China is better because men were not treated as a divinity and women had 0.000001% of independence in China.
The theme of the nuns songs were relief. Relief that Their husbands were gone and that they were freed from their eternal bonds. All of these works were about how man is dominant over women, and womens sole purpose in life was to serve thaeir husbands, and once they died, their husband's family. Talk about unfair!?!?!?!?!? This society is even more screwed up than the Chinese! When a woman throws herself on her husband's funeral pyre, there is something wrong with that society. And the fact that Savatri followed the God of death to get her husbands soul back for MILES, is just slightly crazy. It was nice to see that they actually did give her credit for having a brain, not being an imbusil whose purpose in life was to do whatever tradition tells her to do. The societies of China and India are similar, but I think that India's society is much harsheer on women that China is, even though they are both very infuriating.
you can obviously tell that a man made up the idea that men are gods. even now a days you see egotistical guys that think they are better than everyone else. its stupid. even here in the united states women only make $.75 to a mans $1.00. that to me is a sign of male dominance. i am a very independent person so when i see that still in 2008, women are still being discriminated against it makes me wonder how far we really have come?
and i think it is soooo disgusting for a 12 year old girl to marry off to a 30 year old man. GROSS!!!!!
Ok so first of all i loved the story about Savatri i think they both respected each other because they truly loved each other. Unlike The law of Manu where women are basically said to do nothing right. I think that if women had a choice in who they wanted to marry or be with with that mabey the couple would have more respect for each other like the story of Savatri.
I hate the way man thinks they're so superior to women.
Women are the ones who give birth, so I think it should be the other way around. I mean, it's ridiculous that women in India would throw themselves into their husband's cremation pit just so they wouldn't be looked down upon. I think it mainly comes down to one thing. Physical strenth. Men assume that because they MIGHT have a higher indurence level, or maybe they might LOOK more physically able, that women need to surendor to them. And the fact that some fathers would marry their daughters off when they're 8 to a 24 year old just for money is outragious! No human being should be treated that way. Men have different ways of letting the world know that they think they rule all. Lke the word human...root word? Man. Man-kind? Same thing. I personally think that men and women are equals and neither should be treated better than the other. Unfortunately it's not just that we saw it back then. We still see it today. Like when my dad is driving and gets behind someone who's slow, he always assumes it's a woman because of that persons driving capabilities.
It's simply stupid and ignorant of the way they acted.
Yeah, this deffinitely ticked me off a little bit. Alot actually. Although, women in India do seem to start getting a little bit more recognition towards the end.
HAH! and worshiping MY husband? No way, take a hike.. These women, or children for that matter, are having to devote their LIVES for these discusting men that sometimes dont have the least respect for the women, they just want what they can get and walk out the door. Though, on some occasions, I would assume that a few men here and there would have some what of an interest in your feelings.
Im sorry but no matter how much i loved my husband and no matter how much of a so called impact he had on my life, you would never see me throw myself into a fire for him. sorry pal.
Also, women not being able to have personal possesions of any kind..ridiculous.
but all i have left to say is..
"Anything men can do, Women can do better."
:]
haha. this'll be fun. sorry it's a day late tho. i couldn't NOT post ;)
hmmm. men = better than women right? W.R.O.N.G. okay. so "you men"... what can you do? well. you are stronger SOMETIMES. you are...taller? w.o.w. that's an accomplishment. i might die of shock. it is amazing. ya. >:|
WOMEN- smarter by nature, more carring and gentle( when someone makes us mad, we don't declare war and ruin the economy), we freaking create life. Gods are worshiped because they creat life right? they created humans. WHAT DO YOU THINK WE DO? lay eggs? NO.
We give birth to humans. we creat humans. why aren't we worshipped? fine. if not worshipped, why not even slightly more important? okay, FINE. why not even EQUAL? no, again?? fine. why not ACCEPTED. no? learn to sleep with your eyes open ;)
we cook, we clean, we are your freakin slaves.
Let me just ask you a question. a very simple question, but you men have yet to give us a good reason to answer to us with, and it's been how long? WHY ARE WOMEN NOT AS GOOD AS MEN? WHY ARE YOU BETTER?...
Have an answer? i don't.
The opinion of women in India overall seems to be that they aren't important enough to be equal to men. The men that wrote the Laws of Manu, as well as other texts, are the reason(s) why men seem to be superior to women. Men wrote it, so of course they're going to put themselves at the top of the food-chain. This is similar to the Hindu social system. The Brahmins wrote the religious texts, so you would only figure that they'd want to give themselves the power. It's human nature.
In the songs by the Buddhist nuns, the songs manage to illustrate the 4 Noble Truths by what was mentioned in the Mutta. It mentions how they're free from rebirth by giving up all desires. Later in the reading, the nuns also mention being free from the men that they despised from forcing them to be working constantly around the home. Even these nuns are unsatisfied by the way they've been treated.
As we learned earlier on, women in China weren't treated so fairly as well. Patriarchal ideas were spread all throughout China as well as India. Even though women were typically forced to obey their husbands, some grew up with that culture and didn't mind it as much. Of course, these women probably didn't abhor their husbands as much as others whom were married off by their family against their will. An example of this was portrayed in the reading of Savatri and the God of Death.
Ms. Niemann,Try an look at if from a different angle. The average American Stay-at-home-house-maker, Why do they "slave all day over a hot over" and what-not around the house? Because they don't have jobs{income producing}.They don't, because they have a job that may be more important than making money, they have to raise and bear children. This isn't the 1950's anymore Ms. Niemann, if women want to follow a career instead of caring for the family, they are free to do so {in America}. so in a way, the patriarchal breadwinner of American in enslaved to women.
Also if you are trying to compare Women to men and how each is better with ridiculously stereotypes, it is no better than what the men you hate from Classical China and India.
The poem shows how poorly women were treated in society. It was unfair and they knew it. The beleived that the only time that they would actually be treated fairly was when they died. A wive was pretty much a slave to her husband. She was married off to a man that was usually at least twice her age when she was very young by her parents and forced to serve him for life. I think it gets way out of hand when it is said that women should worship their husbands like gods. Just think that this all started with the idea of farming.....
sprung....i definitely agree with you there. i mean...worship the husbands like GODS??? i mean, yes, women did take care of the children..and didn't do any of the manual labor (besides actual child labor haha), but...isn't that more difficult than manual labor anyway? This helps a lot with the essay because it is a major similarity between India and China. Both societies treat the women like crap, and the men like gods. i mean...back then...the woman was making your meal...so wouldnt you want to be nice to her, cuz we all know she could have poisoned him. hahahaha well jk on the last part...
ok, well first of all, all these documents in my oppinon are ridiculous. Women are treated like crap and have to think and treat their husbands like gods. what the heck??? I dont get why women are so degraded in Indian society because they give birth to men! Idk it makes no since to me. And I dont understand why the women cant own land or keep the money they earn. it really makes me thankful that i live in America.
yes miss kempshall, in america where women are THE LAST in society to be granted the right to vote, long after african-americans. not until the year 1920 (!!!) will women get the right to vote, after long battles to get it. i'm just sayin... this issue is universal
Jeez. I can't believe that women (or girls, a lot of the time!) were actually expected to behave like that! The idea of women worshiping their husbands is just ridiculous. Just because women had to stay at home and tend to the children, while the men were out harvesting crops (the start of agriculture) doesn't mean that women should be subjected to this crazy, unjust standard.
Two things struck me in those articles: In the Therigatha, the women talked about how greatful she was to be free from all of these daily chores and her "kitchen drudgery" DEFINITE red flag there.
The other thing would be in the Laws of Manu, when they say
" A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner."
I think that that view of society is so twisted. Its sick that a thirty year old man could marry a twelve year old girl! All for the control and dominance in that male-dominated society...
Yuck.
Women in India are looked on very little. In the Manu laws must treat their husbands as if they were gods. I personally think that Women should have equal rights as Men. Also, the Manu laws are similar to Hammurabi's laws because if a women does not treat her husband right they are punished physically.
I for one, highly dislike the way women were not only judged but treated as well. The expectations placed on them most likely caused them to suffer and most likely be punished if they do one thing wrong. In the poem it spoke of how they were free of chores, and it also mentioned how their "food bowls" were nearly empty. This proves conditions placed on women were harsh, and the fact that women were supposed to be so devout to their husbands, and go as far as treating their husbands as gods is wrong. Also, the fact that they were so happy when they were free of their husbands shows how much the female gender was suppressed.
These documents get me really thinking about how men are in charge of so many things. And when I read these things, they make me think about how low women were back then, & how high the men were.
They were so high that the women had to think of their husbands as gods. That just doesnt make sense to me. I dont see why women were so low to all these men.
And, still today, we have male dominance around.
I really think that 8 year old girls getting married off to 24 year olds is SO GROSS. That's like rape right there. And it was okay for the men? Just for their pleasure? That's so not fair.
In my opinion, I really think that just because we're girls, & not guys, men think of women as humans that do what the men tell us to do. And we're like humans that cant do anything better than the men can do.
NOT TRUE. Women can do anything & everything that men can do. Just because we're more scared of things & blah blah blah, doesnt mean that we can do what the men can do.
i don't agrre with any of it. like whats up with a 24yr old man marrying and 8 yr old that wrong. also women shouldn't have to please the men and like worship them if anything they should like please women because women are the source of life they are the ones who bring the babies into the world. at least the last story wasn't so horrible as the first ones beccause at least she got to marry someone she cared about.
Also, in China, royal women were said to be respected almost equal to men. The tomb of Fu Hao, who was a consort to the emperor was filled with very expensive and beautiful artifacts, showing how the emperor cared for her, and she was known to run sacrificial rites and lead troops into battle, which are male jobs at that time. China was not nearly as bad as India when it came to a patriachal society. Also, I do not believe that all men followed the normal practices. It just depended but it was a fairly normal practice. I also believe it all goes back to the rising of agriculture. As hunters and gatherers, women contributed just as much as men to the direct survival of their group.
Yeah they way they treated women was wrong, there is now way they should let "underage" girls marry older men. It's wrong in so many ways ethically and morally.
Men expecting women to treat them higher than themselves, and in that case, even worhiping them, is ridiculous. And child marriges? That is way wrong, and sick. It is taking total advantage over the little girl's life. Not being able to re-marry? What is up with that? The Law of Manu makes refrense to women as having to act and be like a slave to their husband; how cruel can you be? Things have defiantly come a long was nowadays than in those male dominating societies.
Hello. I wanted to share a website article on child marriage.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,418025,00.html
This is CRAZY!!! seriously!omg! look at this!
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