I do realize that we only discussed foot binding in two classes today, but by Monday we'll all have this discussion, and certainly you've all read about the custom in your reading this week. The practice of foot binding is a useful stepping stone to a discussion of the status of women in the Song period especially. Hopefully you all at least understand the “logic” of foot binding-- it is a painful symbol of the constriction of women, and it shelters them from the outside world much the same way as the harem did in the Abbasid empire during the same time period. What does this process say about the changing status of women in China at the time? In your opinion, are there any equivalent societal pressures in the world today? I know you will inevitably want to bring up examples from the Islamic world without examining our own country, but let's focus on this country in 2008. Include specific examples from our own age and country. So, again, are there societal pressures in the world today that we could compare to foot binding in terms of the effects it has on women? Your thoughts...
Friday, October 17, 2008
A Comparitive Look at the Practice of Foot Binding in Postclassical China
I do realize that we only discussed foot binding in two classes today, but by Monday we'll all have this discussion, and certainly you've all read about the custom in your reading this week. The practice of foot binding is a useful stepping stone to a discussion of the status of women in the Song period especially. Hopefully you all at least understand the “logic” of foot binding-- it is a painful symbol of the constriction of women, and it shelters them from the outside world much the same way as the harem did in the Abbasid empire during the same time period. What does this process say about the changing status of women in China at the time? In your opinion, are there any equivalent societal pressures in the world today? I know you will inevitably want to bring up examples from the Islamic world without examining our own country, but let's focus on this country in 2008. Include specific examples from our own age and country. So, again, are there societal pressures in the world today that we could compare to foot binding in terms of the effects it has on women? Your thoughts...
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I can't think of any right now, but it seems to me that the pointed toe heels we have today might have originated from this foot binding practice. Women are set apart from men in ways but not to that extent. I think that the social pressures that women might have today is how much of their body they are revealing. That is basically all i can think of now. Every generation, the girls seem to become less and less conservative in the way they dress. 50 years ago, girls were barely ever showing any skin but now it has changed. I think the foot binding is basically showing society that women are objects. This isnt what should be shown but yet are society is similar to this.
quick question.. when they bound a womans' feat, could they walk ? didn't it hurt to walk?
quick answer: not really, and YES
lol
thats cruel and unusual O_O
what about the women in AFrica I think it is...that wear those springs on their neck to make them longer?? that comes to mind when I think of foot binding.
Why is that?
i automactially related it to the neck rings thing in africa too!
but what i dont get is why they would do this because it clearly wouldnt allow them to walk but how are they supposed to do the things they have to do? like how can they take care of the children if they cant walk or anything?
just to clarify, the practice of wearing neck rings that you are describing is NOT a common practice in africa. there is one specific ethnic group in south africa known as the ndebele that does this. it is also done by some groups in myanmar and thailand in southeast asia, but again this is not a common custom by any means. one thing that you will come to understand is that in a diverse world such as ours, a diverse number of things are considered beautiful. in some societies that would be an elongated neck. are there potential health risks in play? yes, but it's mostly an illusion that is created by the rings. at any rate, again, please follow my question. i'd like to see if we can relate this more so to trends that perhaps you see in OUR society in the early 21st century.
yeah, I definatly agree with Becca. Girls revealing clothing is very simaliar to foot binding, mostly because of the pressures both practices are coming from. Both of these are from the men of societies.Not all men, but a large number of them did and do. Thats mostly why i think that they are simaliar!
I think the practice of foot binding was commercializing women because it was practiced by wealthy families to enhance women's attractiveness. I think it is related to Korean society today because many women are getting plastic surguries before they get interviewed for a job because of lookism in Korean society, especially for women.
What I don't get is, how was this acceptable for so long? Not only is it disgusting, its also very inhumane
Jeez, that would freakn kill. I cant really think of anything THAT extreme right now going on. I cant believe it went all the way into the 20th cent. What a terrible custom.
I would consider breast enlargement, tummy-tucks, face-lifts, ect the same principle as feet binding in China [not as limiting in mobility,but similar]Causing pain for vanity has always been a factor in society, some may be more painful than others, but who should decide what is beautiful other than the beholder.
I understand how this is a factor of a patriarchal society,this was a large practice but I don't believe men made all women do this practice, and also i believe women chose this method of beautification for themselves [I saw a women on You-tube living in New York who had her feet bound, and no one forced her]
sorry about the late-night comment Prill, but better late than never....
What about eating disorders. Women want to be super thin because they think they are fat. Like foot binding this takes place so they can become more "appealing". Also like foot binding it is very dangerous and harms the body.
In our world today their are several unique cultures and customs practiced...but in my opinion none of them are as bad or even painful as the one in post-classical China. In 2008 today and in some socities...there are practices similar to this still occuring, but not as much. In our society today, as Becca said as each generation evolves, the girls are certainly gradually becoming less and less conservative in their clothing choses and their customs. :)
one word: OUCH! this definitely reminds me of high heels? i mean...the women stood taller, just like women in high heels...and women can't walk in them (hahaha jk jk ;]) ok so at the moment, i cannot think of anything THAT extreme. although, i know this isn't a great example, but how people won't really vote for a woman anything (not everyone...just some stubborn people).
wow... just reading about foot bindings makes me sick. The pictures in class we pretty bad too. Those poor women born with bigger feet had to suffer and go through a lot.
There is a lot of societal pressure on women, even in America. People automatically think that women are responsible for taking care of children while the men go to work. Women drop out of school, college, and work to take care of children. This perception of women is a big problem in many places. It is why people don't want vote for a woman anything (as David mentioned). Also, people get offended/affronted when a woman makes more money than a man in a relationship. Or the man's ego is hurt. If our society had more equality for both genders, it wouldn't be so hard for a man to accept the fact that a woman is more successful than he.
This is gradually becoming less and less of a problem, but it remains a problem regardless.
Hey Prill,
Wanna hear a joke?
Woman's Rights!!!
jk :)
okay so footbinding...OUCHHHHHHH.
and for once i seriously COMPLETELY agree with Trevor. all that plastic surgery just to look or feel beautiful. you obviously want to feel pretty for someone, am i wrong??
I don't see how women could be considered this low in a society. Harming or murdering someone is a crime. Yet footbinding, which cripples these women, is not? How is this not considered barbaric?
okay,...EWWW!! those pictures from class literally haunted me like all day. thank goodness i don't have your class FIRST PERIOD and have to put up with it ALL DAY...oh, wait,...I DO! grrr.
just the thought of this practice is painful! i canb't imagine the pain!
ya, i agree w/you guys about the whole what's "pretty" and what we do to ourselvs to be so, but at least now we have a choice. last time i checked, i didn't see only skiny, "perfect" gils everywere. there are just a FEW **cough cough** ppl who aren't... but these poor women didn't have a choice. at least it's not practiced any more...
i dont see how that is sexy that looks gross
but now they bont have to spend money on high heal shoes.
Don't know, but the government probably keeps a lot of secrets from us. A weak patriarchial system maybe, U.S. has the name system that makes the man of the family pass on his name to the kids
but like people say, history repeats itself. No promise that U.S. won't be different from China or any of the other societies.
Men got used to women being lower in everything and its hard to change that. I'm not trying to be offensive but its facts.
ok, let's get something straight here... is the united states a patriarchal society? in some ways yes, but we have some of the freest, innovative, and most open-minded societies in the world when it comes to the voices of women. is what patriarchy that does exist government sponsored? no way! the united states government is in fact one of the most progressive entities in american society when it comes to the rights of women. we have a woman (and a very capable one at that i might add) as our secretary of state- condolezza rice, elaine chao is our secretary of labor, margaret spellings is our secretary of education, mary peters is our secretary of transportation, susan schwab is the u.s. trade representative, ruth bader ginsberg is a supreme court justice in the highest court of the land, lisa murkowski, blanche lincoln, dianne fienstein, barbara boxer, mary landrieu, olympia snowe, susan collins, debbie stabenow, amy klobuchar, claire mccaskill, hilary rodham clinton, elizabeth dole, kay bailey hutchinson, patty murray, and maria cantwell are all currently members of the united states senate, the main lawmaking body in our country, we have 74 women in our house of representatives (i'd name them all but i have to get back to grading dbqs), including the top person in the house, speaker of the house nancy pelosi (who is actually next in line to the presidency after the president and vice president), ruth ann minner, linda lingle, jennifer granholm, janet napolitano, kathleen sebelius, m. jodi rell, christine gregoire, and sarah palin are all state governors currently, and of course governor palin is currently john mccain's running mate for president (and i don't even need to mention that she's just one heartbeat from the presidency if mccain wins). so yes, women in our country are under tons of societal pressure, but let's not blame our government for that. i will be first to be objectively critical of any political system (including our own) when criticism is warranted, but i'm no conspiracy theorist. i'm happy to objectively give any government credit where credit is due as well, and i'm happy to say that our government is one of the most open institutions for women in the world. AND THOSE ARE THE REAL FACTS!
Ouch that would hurt! I can't really think of anything in our country that is to that extent. However, I do agree with becca and trevor in that women are always doing painful things to their body to make themselves more attractive or to be accepted. The saying "No pain, no gain" sums it up in what women go through sometimes on a day to day basis. However, women in America are very lucky to have the oppurtunites that they have compared to other societies.
I think foot-binding has definitely had both positive and negative impacts on the world and society today. Some of you might think I'm crazy because I think there are positive reprecussions from this practice, but if you really stop and think, not being biased there are. It was awful for the women of that time to go through such an inhumane practice, but it also give women of future time periods hope. How? When women are violently arguing the injustices of the world, especially in patriarichal societies, they can simply point out practices such as foot-binding, which will occassionally tend to sway some people in their favor. It seemed to be extremely painful, and brutal, especially since the only real reason it was practice was for the male population's enjoyment. Today, society is still highly patriarichal, although women have more rights than before and are allowed equality, have you seen one woman as president yet? No. It is coming close to the day that it might happen but no matter what, women are always frowned upon more than men. Most of the people we are taught about are men, you rarely hear about women, even though I'm positive there were highly influentual women in history. This is all I can think of at the moment, if I think of anything else, I'll probably make another post.
I'm not sure why, but thinking of foot binding kindof makes me think of abortion today. It made me think, a woman has an abortion not to look more attractive, but because maybe the male doesnt think the time is right for a baby. Of course, there are many other reasons, and I may be bringing up some crazy thoughts, but this just kindof reminded me of it. In some cases, especially with like teenage pregnancies or even young pregnancies (early 20s, etc.) the guy will threaten to leave the girl if they wish to keep the baby. So abortion is basically the implied action on the woman. Isn't this the (somewhat) patriarchal system we see in America? I know we have women with honorable positions in our government, like Prill mentioned, but the man is seen as the head of the household. Although women have WAY more rights than they did in many classical/ post-classical time periods, I would definitely say our society is leaning to more patriarchal, however, not nearly as strict. It's funny that I made this connection, and its like super out-of-the-box, but doesn't that make sense? And its also funny because tomorrow is supposed to be the pro-life day i think? i dont know much about it, but i know its about abortion and I thought it was ironic that I was comparing the foot binding to abortion. A bit of a stretch, but I think it makes sense. Agreed?
I agree with Trevor about how today people still go through pain to be beautiful. Getting ears peirced, anorexia, face lift, et cetera. I would also like to point out that the book said that this never became universal in China, and of course for working class women it was totally impractical. The only difference I see is that today women WILLINGLY suffer to be beautiful, whereas most of the foot-bound women were probably started so young that they didn't have a choice. I agree with Danielle that there may be some positives. Like women not gaining any high positions in the government. As I've said before, women do not need to be running countries, and I'm not just talking Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin. It seems to me that most women are totally incapable of thinking logically, they're WAY too attatched to their emotions. Maybe we're just made that way. Not all women, but most of them. You know it's true.
I think a modern "foot binding" like thing, is how some women feel the need to be beautiful and turn to anorexia and bulimia to obtain it. That is the first thing that comes to mind.
I feel that the relationships between a man and a woman seem to be great during our time, but like how many of u have said, men cant stand women getting ahead of them. i totally agree with u, ankur, i mean people somehow just believe that men have to be better, hello!, people wake up whatz so special about them thats not special about women. America is the best out of them all probably, but it can be better, some companies give women less pay than that of a male worker, why?!? But it is getting better, and i soon hope that it gets to the point where all americans are truly equal.
I think a modern "foot binding" like thing, is how some women feel the need to be beautiful and turn to anorexia and bulimia to obtain it. That is the first thing that comes to mind.
Ow! So this seems like a painful process to me. I think it shows the changing status of women as not being able to really stand up for themselves. Its almost as if their confidence of what this society brings into them is taking on this negative effect. To go to an extrememe like this shows how much society has influenced these women into doing this crazy act! Hmm.. i woul have to say the strive to be skinny like models and stars is an example. Starving yourselve to look good is one thing women in our society do constantly in order to look good. The extreme measures these acts do to our bodies are very similar.
foot binding definently shows how patriarchal that society was becoming. in today's society, it's kinda like how women wear high heels because it's considered sexy to be tall. heels can hurt and can be hard to walk in. it's also like women in western culture in the 1700s to early 1900s wearing the painful corsets that sometimes even made them pass out.
footing binding is one of the weirdest things i have ever heard about. I just dont understand why that would be attractive. But it shows how much influence the emperor really had over his people. it just amazes me on how long foot binding was practiced. Plastic surgery is the only thing that i can relate to foot binding. deffinitly not as extreme though.
That is so gross.
I mean it was just a trend. Why did it matter SO much?
I know that the mothers were concerned about marrying their daughters off, but I mean come on...
That's ridiculous. Just for smaller feet??
What's next? Putting women on tables and pulling at their arms and legs at the same time to make them taller?
i was just watching a video on youtube about this.
it still freakks me out.
but it said that women started doing this because some emperess was born with like a weird foot formation so her daddy said only really feminie women had strange looking feet?
whether thats true or the story about the king guy liking small feet, i dont get why women just didnt ignore the 'hype' of all this and keep their feet normal.
and even if they did the foot binding thing, if they like stopped doing it, would their feet eventually go back to like normalish or would it always be weird looking?
yeah i can think of plenty of other places that have sorta of this same thing going on but not really anything in the US. mainly just in the islamic world and Africa. but in the US we do tend to do stuff that people in higher rank do and we thibnk its cool so we do it which is kinda like this...
I think what some people are forgetting is that this wasn't the woman's choice. It happened too young for the girl to get a say in it. It's kinda like how we treat freshman though. Like on sports teams, you make them do something ridiculous one day, an "initiation." Well, it's a tradition. The mindset is that we were treated the same way when we were freshman, as the mothers were when they were girls, and so we use that to justify our actions.
Also, since women couldn't do anything on their own with out a man, a woman's goal in life would be to get married. They couldn't really work or anything, so they wouldn't be able to survive. It's not like it is today, where women can provide for themselves, which may be why we don't have as much EXTREME forms of this
first of all, i think footbinding was crazy! but some things that reflect women being held back in our world today is an exmple that we have recently been through which is the fact that the country we live in has not allowed for a women to be president. this is also partly because other countries around the world view women as the inferior and they have no rights which is also a way of showing how women are set apart from men.
wow kirsten, i really like the whole freshman thing.. i never thought of that. and i'm sure everyone can relate to that. haha
Im the modern United States i think that there are some examples that are put into the public eye to show female insignificance to males.
Early 1900s when women were suppose to stay home and raise a family and shunned for going out into the working world.
Commercials and TV shows that are constantly obsessing over female looks and surgery.
And somewhere not to long ago it was assumed that girls are terrible at math and science......tisk tisk
mainly i think that it is ideas more than actual practices that degrade women in this day and age.
ahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think this is terribly stupid!!! I hate evil men! controlling freaks! (yes there are some women as well... but !) I know too many nice guys that I cannot believe so many men would do this! This is why we should NEVER follow trends...especially if it is a stupid and painful one!! I wish more women in situations like this would stand up to the men and say, "I'm not letting you break my baby's foot!!!" I know it was appealing to one famous guy, but that doesn't mean it is appealing to all. They should have their own idea of what is beautiful and be able to stand strong by it. If people weren't so concerned with what others thought/think, then maybe pain and controll over another would be less or stop all together.
Ear gauges, or whatever you call them (the big metal holes) are the first thing that came to my mind. They don't immobilize you, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't feel too good. Also saggy pants. People wear them because they think it's attractive or cool. I don't know how painful it is, but it sure is immobilizing. Just watch the saggy pant wearing thugs try to outrun the police on COPS, hillarious.
thats disgusting. when they do the neck rings in africa, is it for the same purpose?
Amen Nicole.
I agree that the women were as much to blame as the men for not saying anything or standing up for themselves.
Foot binding I think is something that is too extreme to relate it to much in the present. The closest thing popping up in my mind is high heel shoes, stupid and uncomfortable, but good looking in our perspective.
Ok so tanning isnt neccisarily a forced thing, but when beauty, pain, health risks and women are in the same sentence thats what comes to mind. Think about it, would you honestly think a person that is pale would look as good as a person that is tanned? It sound weird but I know its true, its like footbinding, would they think a woman with unbound feet would be better or a woman with bound feet. Just a thought.
Dante' Johnson
The practice of foot binding seems really gross and ugly, but that is what seemed beautiful back then. The practice of foot binding also showed to the people that the women were wealthy, because the lower class did not participate in the foot binding process. i have to agree alot with what other people have said in the fact that women in our society today are getting all these plastic surgeries done to them, in order for them to look more pretty, so they can impress people. This is also a sign of a women that has some wealth, because plastic surgeries are not cheep, and a lot of women would rather put that money towards their families or to something more beneficial.
Reading about it and seeing it was really a disturbing thing to see. I think it was a trend as much as something to make someone more attractive. It sort of reminds me of 5 inch high heels and really tight pants.Really "attractictive" right now but later its not. It sort of nasty.
I would consider the US to be patriarchal. For instance,decision-making is largely governed by electoral politics and corporate interests, where men dominate.
Most jobs that are most important to society, such as doctor, lawyer, business executive and politician, are held by men, and they influence the society the most.
Men don't dominate necessarily in numbers or force but it the access to power and the ability to make decisions. Men have a higher income most of the time and have the greatest power over the economy.
The foot binding does exactly what it states, it binds the women. More than just their feet, the foot binding shows how women didn't have as much freedom as men. They sometimes needed carriages and other means to transport them from place to place, making them rely on others. This prevented any foot binded women to be fully self-sufficient. As culture becomes less conservative, the practices are lessened, and up to modern day, there has been nothing as extreme foot binding(to my knowledge). Nothing has been so taxing and restricting on a womens life physically, compare to foot binding. More over in areas with less sexual equality, there are still other views on women, and their social standings. Now in comparison to modern day customs, the binding can be seen as vain, as it was trading pain for beauty. And as Trevor states, it is sort of like the plastic surgeries going on. (hand it to Trevor to relate foot binding and breast enlargement)...
foot binding is really too extreme. And they did it for a long period of time. I relate this mainly to high heels. Hard to walk in but it looks good.
There is clearly a lot of pressure on women in this time period to do some weird things such as foot binding. In our country today, the government isn't much of one to push patriarchal behavior while at the same time, there is a lot of pressure put upon women by men in our society. Getting plastic surgery would be one of those pressures. A majority of men give women this idea that they should look a certain way. If they don't, they're not appealing. This is kinda of like how if one didn't bind their feet, they wouldn't be able to get married off. Now, a lot of doctors try to talk to their patients to make sure that they're not getting such surgeries for a particular male or something of that nature. Sarah makes a lot of sense by mentioning abortion. Even some of our government workers have an opinion on the situation. Men convince women that they don't want to have a child so much that they twist their minds into thinking that they need to get rid of the unborn child.
In our modern world their are different ways to change yourself, but none as drastic as foot binding in post Classical China. There is plastic surgery in America, but that still does not measure up to foot binding. In Africa the women wear long "springs" on their neck to make it taller and that is the only thing that half way comes close to foot binding in my mind. Agreeing with Becca, girls in modern day are very much less conservative.
foot binding is like giving a straight up hint that men were trying to keep women behind so that there was no way that they could overpower them in anyway. i think its so wrong. and foot binding is just another way of makin the patriarchy even stronger and more obvious.. men wouldnt even have to worry about women or anything they are capable of doing if THEY CANT WALK!
Agreed lora, go nicole! but hey, women aren't as emotional as they were before! im not saying thati support hilary clinton or palin, but just that ever since we got our freedom(some of it atleast) we are becoming stronger, so if we had freedom like this before, maybe just maybe we wouldn't be so emotional and maybe a bit like men in the concept of emotions.
i agree with lora in the fact that one on the differences would be that women in are time period willingly go through plastic surgery, etc. and in china girls were started really young and there parents probaly forced them so they had no choice. one positive result of this is that we learn from the past. I don't think we'll be trying anything that serious and damaging to anybody else any time soon.
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