Remember what I said several weeks ago, Season 2 is the season of the nomads! Post-classical Europe is no exception. The real power in Western Europe during this period is becoming crystal clear-- THE VIKINGS! After the division of the Carolingian empire in 843, the western portion of the empire became the kingdom of the West Franks (eventually France) under Charles the Bald. Unable to make war against the powerful Viking raiders, the Franks decided to make peace with Rollo, the Viking leader. In the document I would like you to read, an anonymous medieval chronicler tells the story of how the agreement between Charles and Rollo in 911 led to the creation of Normandy, the land held by Norsemen (the Vikings) in northern France. Please click here to read excerpts from this document.When you are finished reading the document, please discuss the following: Under what circumstances did the Franks decide to make peace with the Vikings? How did the Franks persuade the Vikings to accept the terms? What did the Franks have to offer in order to get Rollo's approval of the terms of peace? Why was the kissing-foot protocol so important to the Franks? How did the Vikings behave themselves in the meeting? What kind of attitude did they display toward the Franks? On the Frankish side, who took initiative in the decision to make peace? Who spoke at the meeting and why? Finally, what does this document reveal regarding the real power in post-classical Europe? Discuss...
21 comments:
This document seems a little too fairytale-like for me, but thats okay. The King tok the initiative by sending his archbishop. And by offering his daughter gisele for a wife, he secured alliances with the vikings for the rest of time. It was an offer the vikings couldnt refuse. They acknowledged the duke as a great andpowerful man and kissed up to him. The franks recognised that they needed help from their king in order to keep from falling apart completely, so i think the situation was held rather wisely. It is clear that the vikings are in control as soon as they set foot in france though, because the franks were unable to defend themselves from the vikings.
Instead of arguing with the vikings and going into war with them, they decided to set their differences aside in a way. The Franks gave up the king's daughter Gisele to Rollo. I'm guessing that The Franks believed that kissing a persons foot ment that the king was still in a higher positions sort of like kowtow in China. I think that the Vikings did not quarrell with them and behaved themselves. Charles sent the archbishop , Franco, to the Vikings and spoke with them.
Other empires were afraid of the nomads and kept offering them goods so that they don't invade. This means that the nomads were the ones with true power
The last bit seems like a joke to me. I think the Frank king was trying to put Rollo in his place which is stupid because the Franks were the ones basically begging the Vikings to take the land. The fact that the marriage of Charles daughter was in the deal sickens me. And if someone told me to kiss their foot i would react the same way. i loved how he was saying to the king "i have a backbone u can kiss ur own feet"
The Franks had no there choice other than to offer the Vikings the land and women. Other wise Viking invasions would have continued. The Franks wanted the Vikings to become christian and also show humility to the kind of the Franks. The Viking king refused and made one of his soldiers do the deed, but the soldier made the Frankish king fall thus showing him disrespect. The Vikings could do this because they had all the power in this situation, they had the Franks by the throat.
I think that this story almost happened too perfect because the king fell over by a low rank soldier and everyone just laughed about it instead of getting offended. But i suppose this alliance was greatly needed and so under these circumstances it really didnt matter. The Franks gave up the kings daughter as a way to insure a contract with them. Intermarriage made a great alliance deal.
I thought it was too perfect to be honest. But hey, when the Franks gave up the king's daughter, it helped set up an allience between them. It's kind of like when China (I think that's the right country) would get people to intermarry to bring those close ties with people of different regions or religions.
yes, good comparison miss fritz. the sui dynasty in china used the intermarriage method for unification purposes. we've also seen it happen in gupta india. you will see this method A LOT in europe from this point forward. in fact, it will tangle europe up pretty bad unfortunately as you will see tomorrow. )))DUN, DUN, DUN(((... [that's your little preview folks... doom is on the horizon for post-classical europe tomorrow...
Yeah I noticed that the use of intermarriage in order to allow economic alliances and probably more importantly military alliances for protection was being used a lot. Europeans use this a lot throughout later history though too. I think many of the royal families of modern day countries in western Europe have close ties.
ok. i'm confused a little bit haha. So did the vikings have to kiss the franks' king feet?
if so, him making one of his men kiss the kings feet would mean that he was trying to look more powerful but they really weren't!?
agh. i think. haha
sapp
From the document we see who is real control of Western Europe. The Vikings. The Franks had to offer the viking king eternal salvation and his daughter to stop the invasions of Western Europe. We see another example of who's in charge after the peace treaty. The Franks expect the viking king to kneel down and kiss the feet of the frankish king, however the vikng king made one of his men kiss his feet but instead of kneeling he picked up the frankish kings feet in order to kiss them enbarissing the king and all or the Franks. Obviously we see that the vikings view themselves as superior to the Franks no matter what the Franks think.
The franks only wanted to make peace when it became clear that they couldn't beat the Vikings or defend themselves against them. The only way they pursuaded them was by telling the Vikings that they would have forgiveness if they converted to christianity and if they gave them a kingdom. Also, the marriage was a good idea because it allies the two sides permanently.
The Vikings didn't want to kiss the feet of the kings because that would show that they were beneath the king, which they didn't believe.
The vikings attitude towards the franks seemed cocky to me, like, yeah, we can do whatever we want to you and you cant do anything about it
It sounded like the Franks wanted the Vikings to become Christians. This would cause the church to have power over them if they did switch to it. But anyways the King of the Franks offered his daughter up to the Rollo Leader and the foot kissing thing is important to the Franks to show that they are more powerful over all and they are better than the people kissing their feet. Rollo would not kiss the kings foot because he knows what it means and he refuses to be considered underneath the Franks, so he gets one of his warriors to kiss the kings foot. The power really lies with the Vikings because the European society are scared of them and dont want them to attack and invade them.
wow, they speak in questions.
So apparently, the king gave his daughter, Gisela, in marriage to the duke, and then, i guess gave him the agreed lands from the River Epte to the sea. I thought it was funny how the Duke would not kiss anyone's feet so he commanded one of his warriors to do it. & the warrior just did it in the rudest way ever. hahah. Over all i thought the Vikings had more power over the franks. The franks kinda had no choice but to get along with the vikings in order to stay alive.
It sounded like the Franks just wanted the vikings on their side. After a long time fighting, the Franks realized they couldn't win so they asked for a peace treaty. The FRanks send their best counsel to try and sweet talk Rollo, the vikings ruler. The Frankish king also offered his daughter to be married away. The Franks wanted Rollo to kiss the foot of the Frankish king just so they could try and show their supiority. But Rollo wasn't going to kiss the foot of anybody.
This story did not seem very realistic to me. There was no way things actually happened like that. If a servant of the leader of the vikings tripped a king in public, he would not just get up and joke around about it. He would have the man sentenced to death and it would probobly have started a war between the vikings and the franks.
I don't know if i am comprehending this correctly but this reminds me of Han China; they paid the Xiongnus to stop them from attacking, and isn't giving his daughter to Vikings basically the same thing? This whole passage is sort of funny because the king seems so much weaker than Rollo. For example the king flatttered Rollo to except his terms. The kissing foot thing is probably really important because of their code of chivalery. Respecting the king was showing "loyalty." the Vikings were supercillious in the meeting which i think they were. THis passage overall show that Western Europe is not much different than the rest of the world becuase, to the Europeans their pope or kings or lords may seem superior, but the nomads were the real ones who held the power.
The Frankish people were in bad shape, so of course they would want to make peace.
They will give Rollo a province and the king's daughter.
It is clear that the Vikings are in control, but the Frankish people act like they are in control.
They laugh when the king is thrown down, probably because they are scared.
From the document, you are able to see that no matter how much more powerful the Franks believe they are than the Vikings, the Vikings really run the show here. The Franks are basically sucking up to the Vikings by intermarrying daughters for one. Plus, even when the Franks wanted the Vikings to kiss their foot to show the power the Franks have over the Vikings, they did it in such a rude way that it basically screamed that the Vikings have the most power in the situation. It's kind of like the Xiongnu with the intermarriage. China would constantly be giving some kind of gifts to them in exchange for not being invaded.
World history never fails to surprise me. I would have never believe that a nomadic group could have such power, especially over a king. I think that the Franks did the best they could with making peace with the Vikings though. Making peace was smart on their part because nomads are crazy powerful.
The Franks used religion, theirs being Christian to persuade Rollo to accept their agreement. He also added in a marrage alliance to seal the deal. The kissing of the foot was great! I am glad Rollo would not kiss the king's foot! It shows they are equal partners in their agreement and that one will not be above other. He will not let the king take over his role and let the king become the main person in control. It is nice though, he does not in a friendly way, so as to keep the peace, by making one below him kiss the foot. Rollo is still above, but all his people will still respect the king as above them. Then, by pulling the foot to him, shows they still have to get to know each other and each's culture.
the franks pesuaded the vikings by giving them things, so its like the whole bowing to the nomads things, also i noticed that in the beginning of the passage the guy was talking how the pgans were to be condemned and stuff, so were they trying to convert the viking into christianity, but im not sure if it worked. they were trying to buuild relationships with the vikings so that they would have an ally.
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